Piano concerto recordings better than live performances ?

[Justdafactsmaam]

for a piano to have bass it needs to be looking

to old-school piano-fortes had bass, but they don't play loud enough

Actually the lowest note on a Steinway D is 27.5 hz

 

[Chrispy]

This just popped back in my feed (just looking up the other I suppose), what I'd consider a nice piece with piano with a gifted guy playing it

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

That's one of the things I notice with live unamplified instruments. Even bright instruments sound less obviosly "bright" in the sense of being piercing. This is I think due to the way recording and reproduction tends to leave some of the body and harmonic complexity behind, and generally sounds thinner. So the highest notes no a violin in real life will sound thicker and richer than the more wiry version that shows up through most recordings/playback.



Yeah, that's another one. The sense of presence and acoustic power of real instruments. Most drum sets in real life make audiophile systems sound like a joke.

Another reason I said I find real pianos more compelling than any recording is tied to this aspect. So a distant piano recording, once it gets to me through stereo speakers, will have a phasey see through quality. But if I close my eyes when listening to a piano from a distance (distant hall seat or whatever) there is an obvious solidity and power that the reproduction doesn't have.



Yet another aspect I mostly agree with. Though I seem to perceive imaging focus more strongly than many other people at symphonies, it's still different from much hi-fi playback. The reproduced sound is often squeezed down in to finer points of sound vs the real thing. But, getting at your Bose 901 comment, a constant difference I hear in real sound vs stereo playback is a sort of squeezed quality to the sound, including even the reverb. Like the whole sound has been sort of deformed to fit between the loudspeakers. Mechanical. Even good speaker imaging often fails to sound as open, as free, doesn't breath like real instruments being played in real space.

And trying to capture some of that quality, a combination of image localization but with an ease and openness more like the real thing, has been one of the things I focus on with my systems. And sometimes I'm startled by how close it manages to get.

I hate to seem like a one note member but I strongly suggest you audition the BACCH SP

 

[pablolie]

Hi All,

A few weeks ago I attended a classical concert performed by a good orchestra (hr-Sinfonieorchester Frankfurt) and a talented young pianist, Jan Lisiecki. He played with ardour a full-size Steinway piano with its cover appropriately opened.
I was at the eighth row from the scene, a bit on the left side in a 1000-seat modern concert hall that was totally full.

While the rendering of the Grieg concerto was faultless and full of energy, I felt a bit disappointed : from my seat the piano was dearly lacking bass compared to any cd I play at home or what my wife plays on a much smaller Pleyel piano.

It would probably have been better if I had sat closer to the piano, but then I would have heard the violins and cellos far too loud compared to the rest of the orchestra.

Then I wondered : do I really strive for fidelity and want the same sound in my living room as at the concert ?

Altbough the emotions I got from that live performance were thrilling and invaluable, I actually prefer the more 'full' sound of the recording with a microphone close to the piano and the artificial piano/orchestra balance rendered by the mixing engineer.

Am I the only one ?

...

Not at all.

When I joined this forum I has a similar thread looking at it from the other side.

The Truth about many "Audiophile" Piano Recordings

I listen to a lot of classical and jazz in general, so when I establish if something sounds "well", piano features very high on the things I'd listen to. As does percussion and human voice - and an entire classical ensemble, too (I do avoid the cannon shot in 1812, though, I think that's the...

audiosciencereview.com

And I agree with your perceptions.

 

[dasdoing]

Actually the lowest note on a Steinway D is 27.5 hz

on most pianos you hear only the overtones down there

 

[Chrispy]

Another caution, it may not provide more where you expect it either.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

on most pianos you hear only the overtones down there

I hear the fundamental no problem. I think would anyone only hear the overtones? Am I missing something?

 

[Robin L]

Hi All,

A few weeks ago I attended a classical concert performed by a good orchestra (hr-Sinfonieorchester Frankfurt) and a talented young pianist, Jan Lisiecki. He played with ardour a full-size Steinway piano with its cover appropriately opened.
I was at the eighth row from the scene, a bit on the left side in a 1000-seat modern concert hall that was totally full.

While the rendering of the Grieg concerto was faultless and full of energy, I felt a bit disappointed : from my seat the piano was dearly lacking bass compared to any cd I play at home or what my wife plays on a much smaller Pleyel piano.

It would probably have been better if I had sat closer to the piano, but then I would have heard the violins and cellos far too loud compared to the rest of the orchestra.

Then I wondered : do I really strive for fidelity and want the same sound in my living room as at the concert ?

Altbough the emotions I got from that live performance were thrilling and invaluable, I actually prefer the more 'full' sound of the recording with a microphone close to the piano and the artificial piano/orchestra balance rendered by the mixing engineer.

Am I the only one ?

For the purely symphonic end of that same concert, my seat was almost optimal and I think good records played on a decent sound system are quite consistent with the concert experience.

What *sound* do you prefer : recorded, processed and precisely balanced music or the pure live exerience and its inherently imperfect balance of the various parts of the orchestra ?

What's your preferred seat for attending a piano concerto ?

The next question might be shocking for some : did you ever attend a live piano concerto that actually sounded as good as a good record ?

I suspect the live results could be better with a deeper scene, the piano closest to the public, the orchestra as far back as possible and a seat in the first rows.
Did you ever experience that ?

Can't say that I've experienced that many "live" performances of piano concerti. Have heard/recorded plenty of solo piano and other keyboard recitals. As regards the impact of the sound, much depends on the venue and one's positioning in that venue. In general, most seats in a concert hall will not give the impact or perspective of a recording, usually recorded much closer to the instruments than one can sit in a concert hall. There are symphonic performances I recall that had great impact, two were in Davies Hall in San Francisco, featuring Michael Tilson Thomas directing the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra. The first was when it was just announced that MTT was to be the music director of the Symphony, featuring a performance of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. I was eight rows back from the front row, in line with the tympani. The sound and impact of that instrument was greater than in any recording. The other memorable performance was of Mahler's Second Symphony with the same forces, sitting the front row in front of the cellos. That was the most overwhelming concert experience of my life.

I've also recorded orchestras, including the Berkeley Symphony Orchestra which, unfortunately, has Zellerbach Hall on the UC Berkeley campus as its home base. It is supposed to be a multi-purpose venue, meaning that it's a compromise for both acoustic and amplified concerts. I would often listen to rehearsals prior to concerts I recorded, so I could tell that the compromised sound I heard on my recordings had more than a little to do with the acoustics of the venue. Good recording engineers with good equipment and a number of options for microphones and placement of microphones can sometimes work around the limitations of less than ideal performance venues. However, the members of the audience cannot do the same.

The perspective of many recordings of piano (and harpsichord) concerti have an unnatural balance, where the keyboard stands boldly in front of the orchestra. It is common for the keyboard to have its own microphone array and the orchestra another. And the balance engineer will often favor the soloist. There really should be more integration of the keyboard with the orchestra in recordings and that's what one hears in live performance. In the larger halls, piano has nothing like the impact of most recordings from a mid hall seat. You might consider trying a front row center seat, or as close to that as you can get, for piano concerts. At the same time, a lot of classical music recordings use microphones with a hyped-up sound quality that give more of a sense of presence and impact than one finds in reality. I doubt that having a piano near the lip of the stage and the orchestra well back would help. It would muddy the sound of the orchestra and make coordination of soloist and orchestra much more difficult.

 

[Elkerton]

A couple of anecdotes:

I arrived late at an organ recital and had to sit in the front pew. The sound of the organ was meh. I turned around and noted where the organ builder, Gabriel Kney, sat, and every concert after sat there- the best organ sound in the church. In fact, I arrived at the last concert there and commented to my wife, "If it's good enough for Gabe..." and who should arrive and sit in front?

At a chamber music recital, I was speaking Steve Glickman, a HiFi store owner, at half time, I mean, intermission, and commented the the sound was not 'tight' enough, so the 2 of us moved a few rows up, 5 back from the stage, in the Wolf Performance Hall, and the sound was much more like we experienced on our hifi systems

If I can, I always move around a venue while music is being played to find the best seats.

 

[dasdoing]

I hear the fundamental no problem. I think would anyone only hear the overtones? Am I missing something?

I downloaded the audio of this video and isolated the 3 low Cs between 10:39 and 11:04

here are the 3 in Audacity

you see there is not much going on below the second harmonic (98.11Hz)

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

I downloaded the audio of this video and isolated the 3 low Cs between 10:39 and 11:04

here are the 3 in Audacity

View attachment 337413


you see there is not much going on below the second harmonic (98.11Hz)

That’s a recording. I’m talking about an actual Steinway D in Person in a concert hall. Not saying it will rattle the windows but it’s easy to hear

 

[Multicore]

Actually the lowest note on a Steinway D is 27.5 hz

In standard tuning the lowest note on a guitar is E2 regardless if it is a dreadnought or parlor but the dreadnought has more bass meaning it has more power in the fundamental.

But like @dasdoing suggests, increasing the size of the soundboard gives more bass extension but make it too big and you lose overall power. So it is with the piano too. There's only so much you can get out of an instrument powered only by the fingers of one pianist.

So if you like listening loud to CDs of pianos at home on a competent system then yes, the live show of a piano in a large enough room may be disappointing. Perhaps for these live events it would be more satisfying to listen to a digital piano through a big PA.

 

[Cbdb2]

Apparently I've never reached the critical distance then

I have a different view than some others on this. Some people say they find "good" recordings of instruments better than the real thing. As least with acoustic instruments (and frankly usually electronic instruments too - I played those as well), I don't find this to be the case. I pay a lot of attention to the differences between real and reproduced sound. It's not only somewhat part of my job as a sound editor, it's a life long habit of comparing real to reproduced. What I find is that, for me, I would take listening to someone playing a "cheap" acoustic guitar in front of me over "the best recording" of a "great acoustic guitar" on a sound system. That's because I hear a combination of subtlety, warmth, acoustic presence and timbral complexity that tends to go missing once an instrument is recorded and spit out in a hi fi system. A cheap real guitar sounds sonically richer to me than an expensive guitar reproduced through audio systems.

Same with pianos. I can hear them from close or far away and when I close my eyes it's always "Damn, no reproduction I've heard captures THAT."

I can always tell real from recorded also. Dosnt mean one is better than the other. If you can't hear critical distance I can't help you there. Considering most of the audiance in a concert hall is beyond that distance (it can be as low as 20') your listening to its effect all the time. When the sound of the room (reflections, reverberation, even room modes) is 10db hotter than the piano the piano looses clarity, definition and its freq response changes. Most of what your hearing happend 200ms before covering up the attack of the present sound. It can turn to mush. And the room dosnt have to be that large. So yea if you like a mushy boomy vague sounding piano sit in the last third of a bad hall. It still sound real though.

 

[Cbdb2]

IMO Davies Hall is tolerable if you sit in the first 10 rows and pretty bad from their back. The premium (most expensive) first balcony seats that they promote as the best are simply awful. Pianos sound like toy pianos from up there.

I though live was always better?

 

[pablolie]

On top of where you sit, it depends extremely on the venue and, if amplification is used, being hamfisted about it results in criminally horrible live performance audio. Even in the exact same venue. Plus there are artists that seem to thrive with a live audience, whereas they sound a bit flatter and less passionate in a studio environment. I don't know.

I often go to Yoshi's in Oakland. Some piano artists, like Omar Sosa -to name an example- are awesome at creating a more intimate, balanced atmosphere that sounds sublime pretty much anywhere in the room. Others -who I'd rather not name, although I like their music- cram the small stage with too many bandmates and overdrive the SPL to create what they think is "fun" and "party". It's unlistenable, honestly.

As far as classical performances go, again - it depends. Large venue with a full orchestra? Or some more intimate baroque-like, intimate setting in a church like environment? Or even just a cello and piano duo? I actually lived in Frankfurt for 7 years, and loved the Alte Oper, but then again I never sat right in front of the stage. What's interesting is the fact I did see Leonard Bernstein perform there, and the performance was recorded -Deutsche Grammophon too, who seldom do a shabby job- and that's one case where my memory beats the recording (although it is a very good one).

So all in all, like in many things audio, I think we try to find universal truths when they clearly don't exist. The thrill of a live experience is simply being there and seeing the artist and absorbing the atmosphere, and sometimes being able to exchange a few words with them. The performance and sound thereof is subject to too many factors to try to say what's better.

Personally, for pure sound quality I prefer to listen to stuff at home. There aren't annoying people around clapping or whooping at all the wrong moments, for one. There aren't drunk ladies that decide to dance in front of the stage (poorly). The bass player isn't drunk for the second show... etc etc...

Yes, the "scale" isn't the same. But all in all, I think live performances are totally overrated among audiophiles as a source of "ultimate truth". I have been to many live performances that had great atmosphere but very poor overall sound.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

In standard tuning the lowest note on a guitar is E2 regardless if it is a dreadnought or parlor but the dreadnought has more bass meaning it has more power in the fundamental.

But like @dasdoing suggests, increasing the size of the soundboard gives more bass extension but make it too big and you lose overall power. So it is with the piano too. There's only so much you can get out of an instrument powered only by the fingers of one pianist.

So if you like listening loud to CDs of pianos at home on a competent system then yes, the live show of a piano in a large enough room may be disappointing. Perhaps for these live events it would be more satisfying to listen to a digital piano through a big PA.

As for my preferences nothing beats the sound of a top notch New York Steinway D in a great concert hall. And I CAN hear the fundamentals on all the keys just fine in such a concert hall. It doesn’t need sound re-enforcement.

It’s true you can only get so much out of an instrument powered by “just fingers.” In the case of the Steinway D it’s about 103 db. Something that can fill a great concert hall with ease. Heck, wrap those fingers around some drum sticks and you are maxing out at around 130 db. Fingers on their own won’t generate much inertia but they can be mighty powerful when connected to hands and arms connected to a full human body.

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

I though live was always better?

Live music can run the full gamut from the pinnacle of sound quality to absolute garbage. As I mentioned earlier this reality is often overlooked or unknown to many audiophiles.

Ironically no matter how good or bad live sounds is, it is always 100% “accurate” and 100% life like and real.

 

[Martin]

I’ve been fooled into believing a live piano was playing while listening to recorded music only twice. The first was when I was sitting in a vestibule off the main room at an RMAF listening to a piece from Wende Snijders’ Chante! CD being played on Von Schweikert VR35 Export speakers through KR Audio Kronzilla amps. The second was in my own listening room playing a piece from Sarah McLachlan’s Freedom Sessions on my VR4 Gen III HSE through ICEpower 1000 ASP amps. The first was using a digital file, the second from LP. I think it takes the right recording and some rare cosmological alignment. Magical when it happens.

Martin

 

[pablolie]

...

Ironically no matter how good or bad live sounds is, it is always 100% “accurate” and 100% life like and real.

...and/or disappointing, as in "I thought this MFer could sing a bit, and then live they sound unlistenable... I have walked out of concerts when they sounded like a drunk karaoke copy of themselves, or when it was absolutely clear they were poorly lip-synching. My mistake for buying the tickets and buying into the hype.

 

[Multicore]

As for my preferences nothing beats the sound of a top notch New York Steinway D in a great concert hall.

I like it too. I was just trying to give OP's apparent preference due regard.