Perceptual Effects of Room Reflections

[MRC01]

That’s what I thought too. So I could in fact place a 13” riser in between the 2 tri traps and cover that corner and compare. I was surprised to hear what the acoustic consultant told me.

I think it’s time to take matters into my own hands and apply 13” of riser in between the 2 and run some sweeps.

Sounds like a great experiment. If you try it and take measurements and listening comparisons, please share.

Keep in mind that the difference in transient response might not be obvious in a frequency sweep. Bass treatments do improve sweep measurements, but they can improve bass attack & decay even more, which won't appear in a sweep. In this sense, frequency sweeps can understate the benefit of bass treatments.

For example, to quantify this Stereophile created test signal called MATT. Here's an article where they took measurements with tube traps and compared: https://www.stereophile.com/roomtreatments/215/index.html

 

[srrxr71]

Sounds like a great experiment. If you try it and take measurements and listening comparisons, please share.

Keep in mind that the difference in transient response might not be obvious in a frequency sweep. Bass treatments do improve sweep measurements, but they can improve bass attack & decay even more, which won't appear in a sweep. In this sense, frequency sweeps can understate the benefit of bass treatments.

For example, to quantify this Stereophile created test signal called MATT. Here's an article where they took measurements with tube traps and compared: https://www.stereophile.com/roomtreatments/215/index.html

I meant to check the waterfalls. Not so much a sweep. Sort of the ones posted above are my current waterfall I would still take a new one before and after the change. I hope a waterfall is suitable measurement. Please let me know.

Yes indeed my acoustic consultant sort of awakened the ocd audiophile in me when he said that having for example in my case 60Hz hanging out in the room for 1s will cause those to play with newer bass notes and causes cancellations and summations. That got me to think seriously about that waterfall.

I’m very pleased about what I saw above 75Hz finally. I grew up reading and lusting after those in Stereophile magazine. I guess those are anechoic waterfalls though?

Or maybe in their reference room. Hard to say if those were measuring the room or the speaker or both.

I will definitely read about the MATT test. Thank you.

I’ll just post them again here. This time including the mains.

 

[Sal1950]

The debate got so heated that, sadly, it chased away one of our valuable professional contributing members

I remember that, an unfortunate occurrence that I still regret.
Some folks just can't deal with differences of opinion.

 

[srrxr71]

Sitting in a treated room simply presents itself during certain moments. Generally one’s own laughter presents in an oddly damped way. You can hear your own laughter as coming from mostly you and does not fill the room as it normally would.

 

[thewas]

I'm not so sure about that? I do know that anechoic chambers can be somewhat unsettling to be in, but how much different can that be than listening to music on a good pair of fully sealing closed back or IE headphones? Just wondering out loud?

The problem of listening to loudspeakers in an anechoic chamber actually is that the soundstage can get quite close to the one of headphones which many people don't like. Thus especially for the inherently limited stereo reproduction for example side wall reflections are desired by many as they can increase the envelopment.

 

[fpitas]

The problem of listening to loudspeakers in an anechoic chamber actually is that the soundstage can get quite close to the one of headphones which many people don't like. Thus especially for the inherently limited stereo reproduction for example side wall reflections are desired by many as they can increase the envelopment.

True, but that's one of the things I enjoy about my system in a very damped room, the headphone "intimacy". And I still get just as much soundstage outside the speakers as I did with minimal damping.

 

[thewas]

True, but that's one of the things I enjoy about my system in a very damped room, the headphone "intimacy". And I still get just as much soundstage outside the speakers as I did with minimal damping.

Yes, but it seems that preference varies a lot between different listeners and also depending on the music listened, same as some people prefer wide radiating loudspeakers and some narrower.

 

[srrxr71]

Everyone has to experiment on their own. I guess that’s what the Beolab at $90k provides you. Adjustable dispersion from your listening chair.

Easy to experiment.

Anyway I find that no matter what some sound will make its way to you from the side walls. Some people will believe Genelec and aim for -10dB. Others may not want the studio producer type of sound.

In my room I probably don’t have a choice but to absorb given this silly fireplace jutting out from the left wall with its sharp corner.

Others may have the chance to really figure this out.

 

[fpitas]

Yes, but it seems that preference varies a lot between different listeners and also depending on the music listened, same as some people prefer wide radiating loudspeakers and some narrower.

And dipole and omni and direct reflecting etc. I tend to listen fairly intently, and I like to hear all the production magic in the recording. Other people wander around and/or want background music, etc.

 

[srrxr71]

And dipole and omni and direct reflecting etc. I tend to listen fairly intently, and I like to hear all the production magic in the recording. Other people wander around and/or want background music, etc.

For them this kind of studio setup is not right at all. I used to listen intently but I find this setup to let me just relax and listen. The zero effort thing was worth all the investment.

I could focus and honestly for some details it’s still necessary. Still far less effort than other systems. I am working my way up back to that style of listening but having too much fun now to bother.

I still like the “headphone like” accuracy with a solid front image. The best of both worlds.

 

[fpitas]

For them this kind of studio setup is not right at all. I used to listen intently but I find this setup to let me just relax and listen. The zero effort thing was worth all the investment.

I could focus and honestly for some details it’s still necessary. Still far less effort than other systems. I am working my way up back to that style of listening but having too much fun now to bother.

I still like the “headphone like” accuracy with a solid front image. The best of both worlds.

The best of both worlds is always the trick. I'm getting there...

 

[thewas]

The best of both worlds is always the trick. I'm getting there...

The best to get both worlds is multichannel reproduction but this has other problems as unfortunately limited recordings.

 

[Sal1950]

The best to get both worlds is multichannel reproduction but this has other problems as unfortunately limited recordings.

Yes but there are some truly outstanding upmixers today and you can chose between them for the one that sounds best to you with each individual recording. Floyd Toole has stated doing the same but not which codec he was using, they do tend to keep improving and changing at a rapid rate anyhow. I love having the room fairly heavily damped and letting the software create the envelopment.

 

[375HP2482]

With the room heavily damped and an ample amount of surround radiators, you can replace the early room reflections that blur the sound with much longer reflections representative of larger spaces that compliment the overall soundscape.

 

[srrxr71]

Yes but there are some truly outstanding upmixers today and you can chose between them for the one that sounds best to you with each individual recording. Floyd Toole has stated doing the same but not which codec he was using, they do tend to keep improving and changing at a rapid rate anyhow. I love having the room fairly heavily damped and letting the software create the envelopment.

Yeah I do want to experiment with that since I have 2 extra speakers around. If I mix the KEFs into it I would have 4. I’m still working on perfecting and then enjoying my 2 channel setup. So it will be months if not a year before I even try to do multi channel.

I suppose I could quickly play with some upmixers starting with basic matrixing.

I haven’t finished my 2 channel system yet and I don’t even have enough to enjoy it. So let’s see. I just want to stop working on it and enjoy it for some time. Then take it to the next level with multi channel.

 

[srrxr71]

With the room heavily damped and an ample amount of surround radiators, you can replace the early room reflections that blur the sound with much longer reflections representative of larger spaces that compliment the overall soundscape.

It’s like Ferris Bueller said. “It’s choice”

So luxurious to throw in more multi thousand dollar speakers for these ambient effects.

 

[375HP2482]

It’s like Ferris Bueller said. “It’s choice”

So luxurious to throw in more multi thousand dollar speakers for these ambient effects.

I'm currently using some $69 Infinity 2-ways (steerable tweets) for side surround duty. Wish I had installed more.

 

[srrxr71]

I'm currently using some $69 Infinity 2-ways (steerable tweets) for side surround duty. Wish I had installed more.

So for movie surround or Dolby surround those sides could be anything. Like dipoles not even meant to be localized. That was the spec.

When dvd-a and sacd came out they made a new spec with far higher capabilities. But it requires 5 equal speakers in a particular configuration. That made the cost $$$$$.

Better for the purpose but expensive.

However I bet most producers of multichannel music basically use the sides as ambience anyway.

 

[thewas]

Yes but there are some truly outstanding upmixers today and you can chose between them for the one that sounds best to you with each individual recording. Floyd Toole has stated doing the same but not which codec he was using, they do tend to keep improving and changing at a rapid rate anyhow. I love having the room fairly heavily damped and letting the software create the envelopment.

Fully agree and appreciate such efforts, even enjoyed the Harman Logic 7 upmixer which was a work of David Griesinger in my previous car.

 

[Sal1950]

So for movie surround or Dolby surround those sides could be anything. Like dipoles not even meant to be localized. That was the spec.

Ah no. Would you consider using just any old speaker on and left and a different one on the right for 2 ch?
Much of the negative comments made on multich is done because it's never given a chance to perform it's best.
The base 5 or 7 channels need to be as closely matched as possible, identical if your budget allows.

However I bet most producers of multichannel music basically use the sides as ambience anyway.

Only true in the Classical genre, for any kind of modern music discrete use of the base channels is much more the norm.

Better for the purpose but expensive.

Yes it is, but if you want your multich experience to be as satisfying as your 2ch, that is what it takes.