Passive Nearfield/Desktop Monitors Advice/Recommendation

[bboris77]

Hi,

I am currently running the Klipsch R-15M in a nearfield setup. I know that they have not been measured here, but there are 2 sets of measurements online that state that they are fairly flat. I am about 3 feet away from them. I have lifted them so that the tweeter is at the ear level, and they are toed-in slightly to point a few feet behind my seating position. The front wall is about a foot away, and side walls are far enough. They sound great, but not as smooth in the treble as my main headphones, the HD800S. I know it is apples and oranges, but I find the Klipsch to be extremely energetic and mid-centric (like the HD600), and the HD800S is more trebly, but in a very smooth way. I do not find the treble shrill or piercing at all, but it is not as sparkly and airy as the HD800S.

I am wondering if there is any point in upgrading to higher-end speakers suitable for a nearfield setup that would provide this kind of experience. I do not like "warm" or "smooth" sounding speakers that roll off the treble like some of the Polk speakers do. I am not concerned about super-deep low end either, since I am using a subwoofer with them.

I was looking at the usual suspects, KEF LS50, but I have never heard them in person. Then there is the ELAC DBR62, but I am not sure whether it would work well in a desktop-type situation. Finally, there is the new ELAC Carina BS 243.4, which is a lot more expensive, but seems suitable for a nearfield application.

I would highly appreciate any feedback.

 

[bboris77]

@amirm, is there any chance that you may measure the R-15M? Just trying to see whether they perform better than the Klipsch you have tested so far.

If not, do these measurements seem reasonable in your opinion?

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/klipsch-r-15m-review-w-measurements.107099/
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...sch-r-15m-vs-polk-s15-bookshelf-speakers.html

 

[Sancus]

Isn't the R-15M from the same lineup as the measured R-41M? It has a larger woofer, that's it. I don't see much reason to believe that it would measure significantly differently from the R-41M, other than having more bass. It's pretty unlikely that it's tuned for substantially different timbre or off-axis sound.

I dunno how much I trust those measurements, the 2nd link looks reasonable though and appears to show pretty similar issues as to what Amir measured, at least as far as I can guess from the limited data.

 

[bboris77]

Isn't the R-15M from the same lineup as the measured R-41M? It has a larger woofer, that's it. I don't see much reason to believe that it would measure significantly differently from the R-41M, other than having more bass. It's pretty unlikely that it's tuned for substantially different timbre or off-axis sound.

I dunno how much I trust those measurements, the 2nd link looks reasonable though and appears to show pretty similar issues as to what Amir measured, at least as far as I can guess from the limited data.

The R-15M is the previous generation to the R-41M so I cannot go by that measurement. The current equivalent is the R-51M. Not sure how different/similar they are. The official specs have changed slightly though between the generations. The R-15M has 94dB sensitivity and the crossover is at 1800Hz. The R-51M is 93dB and its crossover is at 1660Hz. Cabinets have slightly different dimensions and then there are those exposed screws on the new model. Definitely not a simple rebadge.

 

[q3cpma]

Personally, I've had some good experience with the smaller Dali or Dynaudio models; small enough that a lack of waveguide isn't fatal, basically.

 

[maty]

The front wall is about a foot away, and side walls are far enough. They sound great, but not as smooth in the treble as my main headphones, the HD800S. I know it is apples and oranges, but I find the Klipsch to be extremely energetic and mid-centric (like the HD600), and the HD800S is more trebly, but in a very smooth way. I do not find the treble shrill or piercing at all, but it is not as sparkly and airy as the HD800S...

Have you tried tweaking the frequency response with a good software equalizer? It is free, usually.

 

[bboris77]

Have you tried tweaking the frequency response with a good software equalizer? It is free, usually.

I would need to invest in a good measurement microphone to properly do this.

I think I have achieved the best possible quality without an equalizer by placing them properly. The degree of toe-in as well as the distance from the front wall made a huge change in the ability to image properly. Now when I listen to them, it truly seems like the voice is coming out from an imaginary space right behind the monitor. When I had them too close to the front wall, the soundstage was not 3-dimensional at all.

My issue with software equalizers in general is they seem to give the sound a mechanical edge when applied. I am using the equalizer built into JRiver Media Center which is good quality. I also experienced the same phenomenon when using Audeze's Reveal with my LCD2C. Maybe it is simply a mental hurdle I have to get over.

Keep in mind, I am 90% happy with my current speakers. I am just wondering what additional improvements one can expect when investing in a different class of passive bookshelves/monitors.

 

[Sancus]

The R-15M is the previous generation to the R-41M so I cannot go by that measurement. The current equivalent is the R-51M. Not sure how different/similar they are. The official specs have changed slightly though between the generations. The R-15M has 94dB sensitivity and the crossover is at 1800Hz. The R-51M is 93dB and its crossover is at 1660Hz. Cabinets have slightly different dimensions and then there are those exposed screws on the new model. Definitely not a simple rebadge.

Ya IDK maybe they've made changes. Only real way to find out is to send them in and see what happens. Personally for small studio monitors my benchmark is the KH80(which I own) but it is pricy. If I was looking for cheap-ish ones I would consider the Kali LP-6. But if you're sticking with passives, I don't think you can go wrong with either of the Elacs that have been measured by Amir. A lot comes down to how much space you have and stuff though, the DBR62 are rather larger than the KH80 that's for sure.

To be clear, it looks like the treble is hot here/the midrange is depressed however you want to put it. That is similar to what Amir measured. It is less uneven/"smoother" but with the amount of smoothing applied and resolution lost in the midrange due to gating, it's pretty tough to compare this to Klippel measurements.

In addition, the off-axis doesn't look very even but again it's pretty hard to tell due to limited # of measurements and smoothing. I see issues around 1K and 3K though which is also where Amir measured issues in the R-41M.

That's my take anyhow.

 

[ttimer]

Personally, I've had some good experience with the smaller Dali or Dynaudio models; small enough that a lack of waveguide isn't fatal, basically.

I second this recommendation but I don’t believe that a lack of waveguide is “fatal”. Some VERY serious developers in the pro market intentionality don’t use them. (Dynaudio and ME Geithain)
Speaking of which, ME Geithain makes a small, passive coaxial speaker, the ME25. It has an intended listening distance of 1m, which, depending on your desk, might fit well.

 

[q3cpma]

I second this recommendation but I don’t believe that a lack of waveguide is “fatal”. Some VERY serious developers in the pro market intentionality don’t use them. (Dynaudio and ME Geithain)
Speaking of which, ME Geithain makes a small, passive coaxial speaker, the ME25. It has an intended listening distance of 1m, which, depending on your desk, might fit well.

Lack of waveguide is "fatal" in 2-ways with a woofer bigger than 5", though. Very clear from Dynaudio's own measurements of the LYD (5, 7 and 8) serie, where the mismatch gets bigger and bigger.

 

[thewas]

where the mismatch gets bigger and bigger

...and gets even added to the vertical radiation dip at the crossover region making the sound power dip there even larger...

 

[q3cpma]

...and gets even added to the vertical radiation dip at the crossover region making the sound power dip there even larger...

Indeed, but less important in nearfield scenarios. Still important to mention, as those are often used in far field with subwoofers.