Parts Express Orian Speaker Review

[MAB]

Not just here... got a guy over on AH with an Epique 7 and no idea of what to do with it. Hell, I don't even know what I would do with those and their 83dB sensitivity rating.
Besides, other than for determining possible cabinet size, how many folk start a build concept with a woofer? I always look at Tweeters first and then what matches to that running down through mid to woof.
That, at least , is what has made sense to me. *shrugs

Agreed.
Judging DIY as a body of work by the fails is like judging all commercial speakers by the many failed designs.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Back to the topic....

James mentions that the lack of imaging is probably from the how the coax provides a waveguide to the tweeter and ruins its dispersion characteristics. or something along these lines. Can't we confidently say that the problem is from the coax driver itself? Or how about I put the question this way, you mention that without raw driver measurements we can't know exactly what is wrong but is there any indication that the issue is coming from somewhere else other than the coax?

After revisiting the measured frequency response., am going to call this an overall failure from a design perspective. The open back might have a place but not until you get the rest of it right.

Cannot blame the coaxial alone for the ragged mid-bass notably (baffle step region) even as the reviewer seems to gloss over it. 

 

[kemmler3D]

Yes, if you are a DIY addict and have $600 to spare just to claim you built perhaps. As you might surmise, have a bit of that obsession!

But with the added effort to build and finish, I think DIY design calls for an even greater attention to how to produce an extra level of sound quality that transcends beyond what you can simply purchase. If the coaxial driver was great then the open back aspect really is not needed or, at the most, be left as a curious option.

I think this detail is why Linkwitz’s and some more recent DIY designs are compelling. Even if not as unique as an LX521 or LX mini, supplying more in-depth design info can reveal why it may be a worthy project. As I posted earlier, sometimes it may take some extra work to uncover the added benefit of a DIY effort. PE does that well with less expensive products like the C-Note or the BR-1. Given its higher cost, the Orian needs even greater support to leap the hurdle imo. Am not seeing that here and so, regardless of technical root cause (like a poor coaxial design) find it a less compelling offering.

p.s.

Agree on the Sica coax as @ctrl had floated it for Directiva. Unfortunately, price and availability here made me less willing to invest time on it.

This is a good point. DIY can surpass commercial offerings when manufacturability limits the performance of a speaker at a given price point. Elbow grease can actually get you to more levels of "no compromise" where spending more on parts won't.

Why don't more cabinets have rounded edges? Because rounding the edges is another manufacturing step, not because it doesn't help the sound. But if all you need to do is spend a couple hours roundning edges on a cabinet you're going to keep for years, it's a no-brainer.

But also to emphasize your point, you need to know what those effortful improvements are and how to do them. The speaker doesn't design itself.

 

[GM3]

For DIY, the equation will also likely vary depending on size. For bookshelves the, B&M solutions might be more cost efficient, but when you get to large speakers, I'm certain that the DIY options become much more competitive, and will likely outperform similarly priced alternatives... For example, old, but decent example; for <$1000 you could get something like https://www.speakerdesignworks.com/anthology

Well that was back then, not sure if these days the largish floorstanders have also improved as much, but if your budget was limited to <1k, you'd really be limited to very budget options. And when you get to higher end offerings from more reputable brands, price for similar specs/performance can easily double.

Plus, you get to customize and get options you do not get with B&M. One of the Orian strengths seemed to be bass, don't think you'd be getting that with the Kali studio monitors, also, being open back, you're getting something very different, which likely isn't available with B&M. Really two very different speakers, and I don't know of any B&M which offers the same features.

Why don't more cabinets have rounded edges? Because rounding the edges is another manufacturing step, not because it doesn't help the sound. But if all you need to do is spend a couple hours roundning edges on a cabinet you're going to keep for years, it's a no-brainer.

Hours?! Hehe, 20$ router bit, shouldn't take more than 20m for a pair.. But yeah, guess it adds up for manufacturing.

I think mostly the difference comes in economies of scale & ID/B&M costs/savings. Also, fact that large manufactures might not even be interested in providing the best sound for $, anyway, maybe I'm just just a cynic, but I think that passionate DIYers will strive harder to get best price/performance than say Klipsh, who's 100% about profits and couldn't care less about performance as long as they make big profits.

It's much more the finishing as in sanding, veneering, using fancy veneers, woods, etc., which can take a huge amount of time/cost and make unobtainably priced speakers affordable through DIY... Would $5000 DIY sound better than $100000 speakers? Maybe not, but for 5k..! It's like a hack for normal people.

 

[GM3]

Spoiler: Audioholic video review is up

For the value proposition, referenced here, "Under $600 [...] If you tried to buy something like this, MSRP, like retail, these would be like $3000 [...] Crazy good value.". So I don't know how in actuality the Kalis would be comparable...

Actually, both were reviewed by James Larson, and the Kalis are powered:

Parts Express Orian 3-Way High Output Bookshelf Speaker Kit Review

The Orian 3-way bookshelf speaker is a high-output, coaxial design with a dipole midrange and an 8” bass driver, for only $675/pair. How can it be priced so low? You have to assemble it yourself!

www.audioholics.com

Kali Audio LP-8 Powered Monitor Loudspeaker Review

We reviewed the Kali Audio LP-8 powered studio monitor loudspeakers to determine if pro-audio equipment can be used with excellence in home audio applications.

www.audioholics.com

Anyway, I guess the above statement about the value, whether it's $600 or $3000... shrug... lol

 

[ta240]

.... Do you want a completely custom piece of furniture, or just something really big and unusual? DIY might get you there for 1/10 the cost.

Or if, like many of us, you find the process completely enjoyable then DIY can be a great pastime. My woodworking skills are not furniture grade but with enough time and patience I can turn out a decently finished speaker; even with just a circular saw and router. The building process is pretty much my version of meditation. It is hard to worry about other things when I'm so focused on measuring, cutting and finishing wood. I'm just bummed that I don't have any more rooms for speakers or anyone to really give them to. I don't like building them and then sticking them in the attic.

I find electronics are easier to store, but even then when they start to pile up I figure I should stop.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Btw, was able to confirm that the CX-150 coaxial used in Orian sold poorly as a standalone driver. Also, that PE only plans to sell it as part of the Orian kit. This is unusual for them. I would not buy a DiY speaker that did not have the drivers available for spares. Lends credence to the rumor that the Orian was designed to help move excess CX-150 inventory. If so, means they are also unlikely to ever manufacture more of them as well (another negative for DiY).

As Orian has been available since late 2022 and managed only 1 review posting, seems something needed to be done. Also seems odd was not given to Erin. Perhaps he was too candid about the other PE kits he reviewed?

 

[mtg90]

Yeah those coaxials were removed from their website a short time after I noticed and made a video about the vented formers which are a no-no when you have an exposed pole like that as it's essentially a bunch of holes between the inside of the cone and outside. They brought back the 4" drivers a while later with fixed solid formers but I wondered what the did with all the rest of the drivers. I guess this was an attempt to use at least those original 5.25" coaxial drivers up. It's too bad James didn't post any distortion measurements, one of the issues was those holes in the former created an awful lot of whirring noise and distortion up to a few hundred Hz but perhaps the 3-way design and open back was done on purpose to mitigate that.

Edit: I don't see the holes in the former on the current photos of the CX150-8, perhaps they did get both drivers remade with solid formers but I never recall that CX150 listed as in stock after they first removed them, if they were it was for a very short time.

 

[Rick Sykora]

Here is the Orian directivity....

and here is what one would expect from a refined coaxial driver for a comparable price ( a fully assembled KEF Q350)...

Now some of this could be the skill due to the designer, as we have seen better directivity performance from standard 2-way bookshelf speakers (at a comparable price) than the Orian attains.

 

[Wolf]

I am not seeing the results with the rear wave of the midrange incorporated. Without that, the measurements are a complete wash.

 

[Rick Sykora]

I am not seeing the results with the rear wave of the midrange incorporated. Without that, the measurements are a complete wash.

Agree, not clear, but it is what Larson posted with his review. He did not state the conditions but does measure the output with and without the damping...

In either case, the major output is between 500 Hz and 2 kHz. This coincides with the major bloom on the heat map.

Have you heard them?

 

[Wolf]

Not in a good situation I haven't. I heard them briefly and softly at AXPONA last year.

The rear was open and the reflections were loaded with close proximity walls to the point the mids were starkly elevated.

 

[im_gumby]

The funny thing is I was only reading for the first time James Larsons page on Audioholics and then this thread popped up, what a coincidence.

That's right, I got excited when I saw a coxial design and thought end game, integreate with 3 subs and you got a winner but it seems, like you said it needs so much more for us DIY geared enthusiasts to be sold on it. I would expect Parts Express to fil in these gaps.

Hi,

I'm a little confused about the negativity of coax / full range.
I mean if you look, there are some examples of DYI coax designs...
Both as 2 and 3 way designs.

Just to start...

https://solen.ca//storage/media/T5mePf6gdFYhuuiXiHdbZ6cqDVMnsCNWxe2oSLqr.pdf

(Madisound didn't have the plans on their site. )

On a different forum someone started w their cabinet design and then evolved it.
That is for Seas. Now maybe not the best example since its not 'cheap'. (Price is relative.)

There is Tang Band, but I'm a little miffed about Tang Band at the moment.
Their US distributor is Parts Express, and I went to their site to look at

Home

Tang Band W8-2314 8" Coaxial Full-Range WooferThis item available through special order only. Minimum order quantity is 50 piecesThe Tang Band W8-2314 is a full-range coaxial loudspeaker providing high quality sound in a very compact format. The woofer features an 8" bamboo fiber cone that...

www.parts-express.com

Soundblab did this project: https://soundblab.net/stereo-speaker-subwoofer-system-build-with-tang-band-8-coaxial/
Looks interesting... while not a kit, most likely because of the complicated cuts for the baffle... (although could be done w CNC)
And w the Coax in a sealed box you have to mate it w a sub (which he does).

Now there other projects out there... including 3 ways that pair the coax w a woofer.
(Which would match the OP's initial goal.)

Note: I've lumped Full Range w CoAxial.

Is the issue that you have to go to a certain price point to get a good coax driver?

So what am I missing?

 

[MAB]

Hi,

I'm a little confused about the negativity of coax / full range.
I mean if you look, there are some examples of DYI coax designs...
Both as 2 and 3 way designs.

Just to start...

https://solen.ca//storage/media/T5mePf6gdFYhuuiXiHdbZ6cqDVMnsCNWxe2oSLqr.pdf

(Madisound didn't have the plans on their site. )

On a different forum someone started w their cabinet design and then evolved it.
That is for Seas. Now maybe not the best example since its not 'cheap'. (Price is relative.)

There is Tang Band, but I'm a little miffed about Tang Band at the moment.
Their US distributor is Parts Express, and I went to their site to look at

Home

Tang Band W8-2314 8" Coaxial Full-Range WooferThis item available through special order only. Minimum order quantity is 50 piecesThe Tang Band W8-2314 is a full-range coaxial loudspeaker providing high quality sound in a very compact format. The woofer features an 8" bamboo fiber cone that...

www.parts-express.com

Soundblab did this project: https://soundblab.net/stereo-speaker-subwoofer-system-build-with-tang-band-8-coaxial/
Looks interesting... while not a kit, most likely because of the complicated cuts for the baffle... (although could be done w CNC)
And w the Coax in a sealed box you have to mate it w a sub (which he does).

Now there other projects out there... including 3 ways that pair the coax w a woofer.
(Which would match the OP's initial goal.)

Note: I've lumped Full Range w CoAxial.

Yeah, good to make the distinction. Dayton now has really confused the issue by marble-mouthing "coaxial", "point-source", and "full-range" together in their advertising.

Is the issue that you have to go to a certain price point to get a good coax driver?

No, it's not exactly the price point. But they do need to have engineering problems unique to coax addressed. One is the discontinuity between the tweeter and the mid, and the resulting diffraction, resonances, odd waveguiding (is that a word?), and the non-linearities (like the Doppler distortion (which also is debatable name, but real and audible effect).
The Soundlab build had some measurements, they are better than I expected for the TB coax. I built a Seas coax system with the T18REX/XFC coaxial driver. It really doesn't sound to my liking. I own coaxial speakers that I love though. It is possible that coaxial on a budget is not fully compatible.

 

[ryanosaur]

Yeah, good to make the distinction. Dayton now has really confused the issue by marble-mouthing "coaxial", "point-source", and "full-range" together in their advertising.

No, it's not exactly the price point. But they do need to have engineering problems unique to coax addressed. One is the discontinuity between the tweeter and the mid, and the resulting diffraction, resonances, odd waveguiding (is that a word?), and the non-linearities (like the Doppler distortion (which also is debatable name, but real and audible effect).
The Soundlab build had some measurements, they are better than I expected for the TB coax. I built a Seas coax system with the T18REX/XFC coaxial driver. It really doesn't sound to my liking. I own coaxial speakers that I love though. It is possible that coaxial on a budget is not fully compatible.

I've seen very nice work in the Speakers Sigberg has done and is working on using 2 different Sica Coax Drivers. But to your point, there are many that seem to have serious issues that make one question efficacy.
I do know one amateur designer with lots of experience who loves the Seas Coax Drivers. I haven't heard them, myself, so can really give an opinion. *shrugs

 

[im_gumby]

Yeah, good to make the distinction. Dayton now has really confused the issue by marble-mouthing "coaxial", "point-source", and "full-range" together in their advertising.

No, it's not exactly the price point. But they do need to have engineering problems unique to coax addressed. One is the discontinuity between the tweeter and the mid, and the resulting diffraction, resonances, odd waveguiding (is that a word?), and the non-linearities (like the Doppler distortion (which also is debatable name, but real and audible effect).
The Soundlab build had some measurements, they are better than I expected for the TB coax. I built a Seas coax system with the T18REX/XFC coaxial driver. It really doesn't sound to my liking. I own coaxial speakers that I love though. It is possible that coaxial on a budget is not fully compatible.

Did you build the Loki Mk III kit? (Its one that I looked at...) It comes as either a passive or active crossover.
I was thinking of the passive crossover.
(That would be around $350 a speaker plus cabinet.)

Its cheaper than their top of the line full range : https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...as-exotic-x1-04-f8-4-ohm-8-full-range-driver/
This is the one that another person started out with their plans which he then modified.

Not sure about the engineering problems... KEF, Tannoy, Fyne, etc... all have designs based around the coaxial drivers. I mean are all the Meta R3 reviews fake?

In a lot of the threads, you have 'buy vs build'. Part of it is the challenge, can you build a better $2K speaker (parts) vs buying one? Part of it is enjoying the chance to build something. Learning from the process.

 

[im_gumby]

I've seen very nice work in the Speakers Sigberg has done and is working on using 2 different Sica Coax Drivers. But to your point, there are many that seem to have serious issues that make one question efficacy.
I do know one amateur designer with lots of experience who loves the Seas Coax Drivers. I haven't heard them, myself, so can really give an opinion. *shrugs

Ok, silly question.
It sounds like you're making a distinction between a DYIer who is using a plan from someone like Seas (reference build) or Soundblab who has already done the legwork and selling plans. Versus someone picking out a driver and then designing the box from scratch, doing some testing and then building the crossover and their final cabinet all on their own.

 

[ryanosaur]

Ok, silly question.
It sounds like you're making a distinction between a DYIer who is using a plan from someone like Seas (reference build) or Soundblab who has already done the legwork and selling plans. Versus someone picking out a driver and then designing the box from scratch, doing some testing and then building the crossover and their final cabinet all on their own.

So where's the question?


In the case of the Sigberg usage of Sica Drivers, I know that Thorbjørn had some assistance in selecting Drivers from an experienced hand. Following his threads, you can see how he has worked through iterations of tuning the active XO and optimizing the Driver to give what most will agree is a first rate FR. I don't know how much help he continues to have in his design and testing practice beyond his consulting with somebody to help select Drivers. Regardless, he's put two Speakers to market and is working on a third!
In terms of the raw Coax itself, admittedly, I like the looks of the FR sweeps Sica shows for the Drivers. I think every Coax I've looked at is pretty rough past around 8-10K. For my level of experience, that is off-putting. Seeing someone wrangle that into something not-just respectable but actually marketable as a high end Speaker is pretty cool. Granted, he was starting out with a good performing Driver which as I described seems better than most.

The Amateur Designer I mentioned has been building and designing Speakers for some 60yrs and I think he said he built his first Speaker at 14 or 16. *shrugs Like several Pro Designers I've spoken to, he places a high value on Driver selection and matching for the purpose he is designing for. His motivation for his designs is not something I can Speak towards, though I've seen measurements of final projects and they are impressive, including use of the Seas Coaxial. (I don't know the specific model, but I'm certain it is not the one with the clear cone.)
Beyond that, he does his own passive XO work to the best of my knowledge and is not using any active DSP solution in his designs. Sigberg is using the Hypex Fusion Amps.

For anybody building a kit or whatnot, I think the biggest distinction is in the field of how much time you are going to spend tuning it, and how much you will spend on components to fix problems in FR. Not all kits are created equal, and some only take their XO design far enough to be passable without overwhelming the DIYer with 10-component Tweeter circuits and the resulting cost.

I think it's been shown that many instances of "poor design" stem from simply making something good enough as opposed to doing it right. Doing it right might mean extra work or more stringent control in matching Drivers as well as better XO design for a passive Speaker. In that manner, it's a give and take because in the end you are negotiating compromises and balancing cost. That is something any strict DIYer, kit designer or commercial manufacturer is actively doing all the time.

 

[im_gumby]

So where's the question?


In the case of the Sigberg usage of Sica Drivers, I know that Thorbjørn had some assistance in selecting Drivers from an experienced hand. Following his threads, you can see how he has worked through iterations of tuning the active XO and optimizing the Driver to give what most will agree is a first rate FR. I don't know how much help he continues to have in his design and testing practice beyond his consulting with somebody to help select Drivers. Regardless, he's put two Speakers to market and is working on a third!
In terms of the raw Coax itself, admittedly, I like the looks of the FR sweeps Sica shows for the Drivers. I think every Coax I've looked at is pretty rough past around 8-10K. For my level of experience, that is off-putting. Seeing someone wrangle that into something not-just respectable but actually marketable as a high end Speaker is pretty cool. Granted, he was starting out with a good performing Driver which as I described seems better than most.

The Amateur Designer I mentioned has been building and designing Speakers for some 60yrs and I think he said he built his first Speaker at 14 or 16. *shrugs Like several Pro Designers I've spoken to, he places a high value on Driver selection and matching for the purpose he is designing for. His motivation for his designs is not something I can Speak towards, though I've seen measurements of final projects and they are impressive, including use of the Seas Coaxial. (I don't know the specific model, but I'm certain it is not the one with the clear cone.)
Beyond that, he does his own passive XO work to the best of my knowledge and is not using any active DSP solution in his designs. Sigberg is using the Hypex Fusion Amps.

For anybody building a kit or whatnot, I think the biggest distinction is in the field of how much time you are going to spend tuning it, and how much you will spend on components to fix problems in FR. Not all kits are created equal, and some only take their XO design far enough to be passable without overwhelming the DIYer with 10-component Tweeter circuits and the resulting cost.

I think it's been shown that many instances of "poor design" stem from simply making something good enough as opposed to doing it right. Doing it right might mean extra work or more stringent control in matching Drivers as well as better XO design for a passive Speaker. In that manner, it's a give and take because in the end you are negotiating compromises and balancing cost. That is something any strict DIYer, kit designer or commercial manufacturer is actively doing all the time.

Ok so it seems like the issue is that if you're starting from scratch, taming a Coax is going to be more of a challenge that just starting w a 2 way design.
But you'll still have a challenge in choosing your drivers and your XO just a lot easier.

 

[MAB]

Did you build the Loki Mk III kit? (Its one that I looked at...) It comes as either a passive or active crossover.
I was thinking of the passive crossover.
(That would be around $350 a speaker plus cabinet.)

I have, it is not a well-engineered driver. And it isn't even cheap. I have intended to remeasure, but the on-axis performance is very poor, and the off axis has odd behavior as well.
Zaph Audio has measurements:

Zaph|Audio

I was never able to get the tweeter and woofer integrated. I have debated going back and trying DSP crossovers. It isn't an elegant design, and none of the issues inherent to coax seem to have been addressed like proper loading of the tweeter into the woofer cone.

Its cheaper than their top of the line full range : https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...as-exotic-x1-04-f8-4-ohm-8-full-range-driver/
This is the one that another person started out with their plans which he then modified.

Full range and coaxial are apples to oranges. And a whole new set of tradeoffs.
Seas does make a very competent looking coaxial driver, but it is a midrange only, not a woofer, which solves one of the problems of coaxial speakers (the misnamed Doppler distortion) with the tradeoff being no bass extension.

Not sure about the engineering problems... KEF, Tannoy, Fyne, etc... all have designs based around the coaxial drivers. I mean are all the Meta R3 reviews fake?

Not what I said at all!!! Some of the coaxials are a tweeter stuck in the middle of a woofer, coax doesn't magically fix anything, in fact the opposite at times. Genelec has done great with Coax too. Many others too.

In a lot of the threads, you have 'buy vs build'. Part of it is the challenge, can you build a better $2K speaker (parts) vs buying one? Part of it is enjoying the chance to build something. Learning from the process.

Coax doesn't make it easier to build a speaker that sounds good. It is one way to go though.