I am all for information, debate and logic - I love them all. But I find audiophile scientists hard to pin down. If measurements are the overriding issue, and unambiguous in their interpretation (as seems to be the sentiment in the slagging off the Kii's off axis response above) then reel-to-reel, vinyl and passive speakers (to name three technologies) should not be allowed anywhere near the forum. Their measurements are 'worse' than the state of the art. But, it seems, they are given house room because of some other indefinable qualities that, presumably, are still thought to defy interpretation in the measurements. This tolerance, and acknowledgement of 'holistic' qualities, is seemingly only extended to certain types of product!
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Off-Axis Response of loudspeakers.
- Thread starter FrantzM
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Your not taking into account the nature of the conversation, the way it changes as soon as any individual announces a product as ' the best in the the world ' that's where speculation and its frivolous entertaining becomes a little more forensic.
Steer clear of those kind of claims ( and you do, as do I and most others) and we have open debate with all the contradictions allowed as you point out.
If a car design sits in front of us and its speculated it may go 200 mph a level of open debate and exploration will ensue, if I say I have driven it and it is in fact the fastest car on earth then folks might want some proof and start asking more direct and focuses questions..
I think it's pretty simple. In blind listening tests which show a correlation between a certain set of measurements and perceived increase in sound quality, one should pay particularly close attention to them.
Passive loudspeakers are certainly capable of performing at a very high level with regard to off axis performance. Now on to vinyl, tubes, etc note that I never initiated those discussions in my imaging thread and would have strongly preferred if they were never brought up. I've been tempted to restart the thread with objective discussion only, but it seems pointless the topic has run its course.
Important for me as well.
I fully expect you'll love them since it seems your mind is already made up
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Very carefully put. Except it's almost impossible to isolate one variable in a case like off-axis response. Shuffling between a bunch of commercial speakers and saying that it's all down to the off-axis response is hand-wavey to say the least. I don't doubt that smooth off-axis response is better than one that's all over the place, but I don't think a listening test was necessary to realise this!
Yes, in that particular variable they may be.
Well, either I have paid attention to the factors that correlate with perceived sound quality or I haven't. If I have, then surely my mind should be made up! Whatever my listening impressions in a sighted test, if all the measurements indicate that the speakers give perceived increase in sound quality in blind listening tests, then if I don't like them it's statistically likely to be my imagination. It is statistically probable I will like them for a statistically higher proportion of the time than speakers with lower statistical scores. Probably.I fully expect you'll love them since it seems your mind is already made up
(BTW, my comments are usually made with a
even if a cursory examination makes them look a bit ).
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To avoid mistranslation of emoticons by the forum software, just put a space after them before the punctuation.(BTW, my comments are usually made with a
NorthSky
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Can you guys learn to speak French?
I speak Latin, 28.34 percent; French, 28.3 percent; Old and Middle English, Old Norse, and Dutch, 25 percent; Greek 5.32 percent; no etymology given, 4.03 percent; derived from proper names, 3.28 percent; all other languages, less than 1 percent.
It's easier.
NorthSky
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Umm, threads gone a bit... Off axis
NorthSky
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That was just a short interlude...we'll be right back after this important message from our sponsor: Off-Axis.
Audiophile scientists don't know how to measure system performance, only component behaviour, in certain areas deemed important - which is why systems composed of 'mediocre' components easily outperform systems using 'correctly measuring' components, subjectively. This dilemma appears no closer to being resolved, and will probably continue for the foreseeable future ...
Given the current colloquial perjorative usage of the word Audiophile, what the heck is is an Audiophile Scientist?
Guess I should have put quotes around the term
... but, I would say anyone who is an enthusiast about getting decent quality sound from their gear, and does it by emphasising the ruler method in contrast to subjective evaluation ...
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NorthSky
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Remove the file from "Audiofile Scientist" and voila:
Yet more examples in this thread of dire off axis performance..Guess I should have put quotes around the term
Man you guys are the forum equivalent of Zu speakers
NorthSky
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We are privileged, that's for sure. Without speakers there wouldn't be any of that on and off axis talk.
When someone talk to us move from dead center to 90° @ the side, and see if it's still sound legible.
When someone talk to us move from dead center to 90° @ the side, and see if it's still sound legible.
Not a bad analogy. Zu's either sound awful, or fantastic - if they only ever sounded dreadful then how could the company survive ...Yet more examples in this thread of dire off axis performance..
Man you guys are the forum equivalent of Zu speakers
? I've never heard them myself, but understand what's going on - a system capable of being brilliant to listen to, for as long as one wants to, is also typically on the edge of being a Living Hell. There is no such thing as a nice system which is also superb - good sound is not a gentle plateau of a hill which a baby can crawl all over; it's a super sharp spike of performance which goes sky high, with slopes damn near vertical on every side - sorry, that's just the way i think it is ...
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I will reawaken the sleeping beauty here: Although the general explanation of the issue is now a common knowledge, I have not found formalized explanations. I suppose there must be theoretical papers on the subject which define certain limits and ratios of what is acceptable and at which threshold, coloration occurs and becomes audible. Can someone jump in with hard knowledge here?
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Some perhaps,
If you set up your speakers outdoors at the normal listening distance (have bbq and or a beer etc why not) and listen to your favorite recordings, you will likely hear it sounds very bass shy without the room containment but also the most realistic stereo image you ever heard from those same speakers. Seriously, if your system and circumstances allow it, do try your existing system, hear what it does minus the room. This is a good reality check.
If you listen for a while and then move them back inside the difference the speakers interaction with the room makes will be clearer where words can't. Bottom line, side wall and other horizontal reflections normally "do not add" to the recorded stereo image and it's only in a room, that you may hear any of the energy radiated other then direct sound where you are on the couch. . If you have ever been in an anechoic chamber, my impression is without the floor reflections, it's a very uncomfortable, un-natural feeling (not to mention walking on springy wire mesh)
Average room spectrum;
So lets pretend you have a large mostly bare room and you have a speaker on a stand and a measurement system. To make it simple we measure with pink noise on axis and we see the on axis frequency response AND then we take the mic and move it to a bunch of random locations and integrate that, this is the Average room spectrum and these two responses are different why?.
If you have ever heard a classic Altec Voice of the Theater, they can sound very good on axis but walk around the room and they sound very dark because up high they are very directional and there is little energy in the room up high outside the narrow pattern. The Average room spectrum is significantly rolled off.
On the other hand a true omni speaker has constant directivty and so off axis, the music "sounds (essentially) the same" as between the two speakers where the stereo image can be.
To the degree a loudspeakers directivity can be made "constant" vs frequency, this means the off axis spectrum stays roughly the same as on the axis spectrum, just quieter gets quieter as you move off axis. In commercial sound, a common "Trick" we use is to use such a horn above the the front row and aimed at the back row. This allows a "point source" who's on axis spl to falls at the normal inverse square, to produce a near constant spl in the audience plane over a considerable distance.
Here, this is old sound check for Demo Mike did at "a large space" but you get the idea, the 3 Synergy Horns are the black thing under the score board, the SPL and sound quality is very consistent, no lobes and nulls.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2225928221801
Best
Tom Danley
If you set up your speakers outdoors at the normal listening distance (have bbq and or a beer etc why not) and listen to your favorite recordings, you will likely hear it sounds very bass shy without the room containment but also the most realistic stereo image you ever heard from those same speakers. Seriously, if your system and circumstances allow it, do try your existing system, hear what it does minus the room. This is a good reality check.
If you listen for a while and then move them back inside the difference the speakers interaction with the room makes will be clearer where words can't. Bottom line, side wall and other horizontal reflections normally "do not add" to the recorded stereo image and it's only in a room, that you may hear any of the energy radiated other then direct sound where you are on the couch. . If you have ever been in an anechoic chamber, my impression is without the floor reflections, it's a very uncomfortable, un-natural feeling (not to mention walking on springy wire mesh)
Average room spectrum;
So lets pretend you have a large mostly bare room and you have a speaker on a stand and a measurement system. To make it simple we measure with pink noise on axis and we see the on axis frequency response AND then we take the mic and move it to a bunch of random locations and integrate that, this is the Average room spectrum and these two responses are different why?.
If you have ever heard a classic Altec Voice of the Theater, they can sound very good on axis but walk around the room and they sound very dark because up high they are very directional and there is little energy in the room up high outside the narrow pattern. The Average room spectrum is significantly rolled off.
On the other hand a true omni speaker has constant directivty and so off axis, the music "sounds (essentially) the same" as between the two speakers where the stereo image can be.
To the degree a loudspeakers directivity can be made "constant" vs frequency, this means the off axis spectrum stays roughly the same as on the axis spectrum, just quieter gets quieter as you move off axis. In commercial sound, a common "Trick" we use is to use such a horn above the the front row and aimed at the back row. This allows a "point source" who's on axis spl to falls at the normal inverse square, to produce a near constant spl in the audience plane over a considerable distance.
Here, this is old sound check for Demo Mike did at "a large space" but you get the idea, the 3 Synergy Horns are the black thing under the score board, the SPL and sound quality is very consistent, no lobes and nulls.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2225928221801
Best
Tom Danley
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