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My God, Its Full of Snake Oil

dorakeg

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Hello,

Sadly these companies make money off selling BS. If only people would stop giving them their cash, they would stop in a heartbeat.
But in reality there is "one born every minute" has always been true and this will never stop.

Its not a bad thing. Only those who are extremely rich could afford such stuff. If we could get the rich to spend more, evonomy will be better. Even though these companies are selling snake oil stuff, they still need to employ people to work for them. So, the rich buy their stuff, these pple get jobs.

Since these products are so expensive, they won't get any money from the rest of us...
 

Galliardist

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Its not a bad thing. Only those who are extremely rich could afford such stuff. If we could get the rich to spend more, evonomy will be better. Even though these companies are selling snake oil stuff, they still need to employ people to work for them. So, the rich buy their stuff, these pple get jobs.

Since these products are so expensive, they won't get any money from the rest of us...
Except of course, that for every unaffordable product that does nothing or worse, there is another, barely affordable product that “offers most of the experience” and those are the ones that take our money.

That’s why the expensive nonsense has to be challenged.
 

drallim

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Its not a bad thing. Only those who are extremely rich could afford such stuff. If we could get the rich to spend more, evonomy will be better. Even though these companies are selling snake oil stuff, they still need to employ people to work for them. So, the rich buy their stuff, these pple get jobs.

Since these products are so expensive, they won't get any money from the rest of us...
It redirects money that would otherwise go towards advancing the entire industry. In most other industries, when you pay top dollar you get the latest, best thing with the most advanced technology, and it funds research and development to keep the technology moving forward. Audiophoolery sucks that money into a black hole.
 

Axo1989

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It redirects money that would otherwise go towards advancing the entire industry. In most other industries, when you pay top dollar you get the latest, best thing with the most advanced technology, and it funds research and development to keep the technology moving forward. Audiophoolery sucks that money into a black hole.

I think the case that Veblen goods are necessarily cutting edge in their field/s is pretty weak.
 

Axo1989

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Secondly, the Anti Arial Resonance control. Why do they need to control a typeface? Are other typefaces dangerous to sound? Is this finally the breakthrough we've been waiting for?

Those ones and zeroes don't just render themselves, as any DAC aficionado knows. Sans-serif sounds cold and digital, serif fonts have more finely articulated sonics. And matching your digital interconnects to the font used is critical pert of system synergy.
 

DMill

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A $10 watch from Walmart will demonstrably outperform a $100k Swiss trophy watch. :cool:
Maybe it's time for wristwatchatchsciencereview...
automatic watches are awesome. I have a simple Hamilton that’s within 3 seconds a day. Pretty awesome when you really think about a mechanical movement being that accurate. Bought a Sinn a few years back for every day. Damn thing is just as accurate. Gotta love the Germans. I don‘t see much snake oil in the watch market. The movements in the watches are tested, just like we test stuff here. Of course your Apple Watch tells time perfect, until you can’t plug it in every night. :) Then it’s just a sad looking microchip on your wrist. TBH I really don’t like watch comparisons vs audio. But I get it. Rolex=Mcintosh. Nice thing about watches is really no snake oil, just a ton of money if you like them.
 

Chrispy

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automatic watches are awesome. I have a simple Hamilton that’s within 3 seconds a day. Pretty awesome when you really think about a mechanical movement being that accurate. Bought a Sinn a few years back for every day. Damn thing is just as accurate. Gotta love the Germans. I don‘t see much snake oil in the watch market. The movements in the watches are tested, just like we test stuff here. Of course your Apple Watch tells time perfect, until you can’t plug it in every night. :) Then it’s just a sad looking microchip on your wrist. TBH I really don’t like watch comparisons vs audio. But I get it. Rolex=Mcintosh. Nice thing about watches is really no snake oil, just a ton of money if you like them.
I think of watches as more jewelry to begin with, but yeah watch analogies to audio....meh. 3 seconds a day works out to accuracy of .000347 %. Watch SINAD would count how audibly it ticks? :)
 

OldHvyMec

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A $10 watch from Walmart will demonstrably outperform a $100k Swiss trophy watch.
I've never carried a watch except when I was in charge of a time clock and there were no cell phones 40 years ago.
I used a Timex analog. I've been in a Walmart one time, that will never happen again :). I don't care if they give
stuff away. I went home and took a shower, twice. That was Christmas of 92, looking for lights.
I lit candles and took a chance, best Christmas we ever had. LOL

There is a point where price doesn't matter at 67, it was a near death experience 20 years ago in that parking lot alone.
I'd rather take my chances running into oncoming traffic at peak hours on Highway 5 with the sun in their eyes.
Walmart parking lots are serious war zones in some areas. Granny is always packing around here. Then she uses
Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.
 

Blumlein 88

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automatic watches are awesome. I have a simple Hamilton that’s within 3 seconds a day. Pretty awesome when you really think about a mechanical movement being that accurate. Bought a Sinn a few years back for every day. Damn thing is just as accurate. Gotta love the Germans. I don‘t see much snake oil in the watch market. The movements in the watches are tested, just like we test stuff here. Of course your Apple Watch tells time perfect, until you can’t plug it in every night. :) Then it’s just a sad looking microchip on your wrist. TBH I really don’t like watch comparisons vs audio. But I get it. Rolex=Mcintosh. Nice thing about watches is really no snake oil, just a ton of money if you like them.
Long ago watches passed the point where expensive was about accuracy or toughness. Long, long ago. Wristwatches now over say $200 are just jewelry. DACs have done that too, but somehow the word isn't out. I still think watches are a bit snake oil-like (or dishonest) compared to women's jewelry. It is expensive, it looks it and it is flashy is good enough for a bracelet or necklace or ear rings. Having a mechanical watch that is expensive, not particularly accurate, and considering the workmanship is really the same thing without quite admitting it. I do get guys like those mechanical things, but I don't get spending really big money for that.
 

Cars-N-Cans

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1667008414823.png

:facepalm:
What's with the anti-Arial coils? Do they not like this font? I don't get it.

Edit: I'm sure they meant Aerial like an antenna, but still... I hope they at least did not use that typeface on any of the faceplates. That would violate its quantum field and cause a bad sound black hole around the turntable.
 
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MarkS

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Wristwatches now over say $200 are just jewelry. DACs have done that too, but somehow the word isn't out.
That's because it takes some real effort to demonstrate that the cheap DAC sounds the same as the expensive one, whereas any fool can tell that his mechanical watch is not keeping time as well as the $20 one from Walmart.

In high-end watch circles, accuracy is simply not discussed. It's gauche to mention it. Reviewers of high-end watches don't even bother to check the timing accuracy of watches they review (or don't report it if they do).

Here, for example, from one of the main high-end watch sites (Hodinkee), is a review of a $9000 pilot's watch (that is, intended for a use where timing accuracy might actually matter!) that doesn't mention accuracy:

 

Cars-N-Cans

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That was a mis-spelling in some photos. The actual maker says Anti Aerial as in radio aerial (antenna). So RFI control allegedly.
Seeing as how they also used a cheap-ass molex connector for the daughter card even though it professes to be some ultra-high end product pretty much says what you need to know: "We sat around with a drill for a couple of hours twisting wires together, dicked in Cadence making some squiggly traces, and called it a day. Let those sweet bucks start rollin' in baby!" There is something to be said for such profound dishonesty in that they will make a shitton of money off of all the knobheads that will buy these things.
 

Dialectic

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I watched Ansuz deliberately faking demos of their power conditioners and cables/cords at the Florida Audio Expo. Snake oil charlatans of the worst kind.

Martin
Out of curiosity, and with apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere, what was the method of faking? Volume control manipulation? Different source material?
 

Cars-N-Cans

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That's because it takes some real effort to demonstrate that the cheap DAC sounds the same as the expensive one, whereas any fool can tell that his mechanical watch is not keeping time as well as the $20 one from Walmart.

In high-end watch circles, accuracy is simply not discussed. It's gauche to mention it. Reviewers of high-end watches don't even bother to check the timing accuracy of watches they review (or don't report it if they do).
I guess its like SQ in that even inexpensive products can be close to SOTA, or even SOTA when it comes to electronics. I have a wall clock I got from Summit Racing with an order years ago that is accurate to a few ppm (probably down to luck of the draw with the crystal). But still the fact that accurate timing can be had for a few bucks means we mustn't talk of such things lest the obvious come to light. But I doubt buyers in this segment actually buy their watches with any thoughts of accuracy in mind.
 

Galliardist

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Those ones and zeroes don't just render themselves, as any DAC aficionado knows. Sans-serif sounds cold and digital, serif fonts have more finely articulated sonics. And matching your digital interconnects to the font used is critical pert of system synergy.
Having now read the blurb for the DirectStream 2, I'm surprised that nobody is suggesting that analogue, handwritten labels are the only true way forward?
 

Blumlein 88

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That's because it takes some real effort to demonstrate that the cheap DAC sounds the same as the expensive one, whereas any fool can tell that his mechanical watch is not keeping time as well as the $20 one from Walmart.

In high-end watch circles, accuracy is simply not discussed. It's gauche to mention it. Reviewers of high-end watches don't even bother to check the timing accuracy of watches they review (or don't report it if they do).

Here, for example, from one of the main high-end watch sites (Hodinkee), is a review of a $9000 pilot's watch (that is, intended for a use where timing accuracy might actually matter!) that doesn't mention accuracy:

What is the point of such a review? Reminds me of the audio reviews in 6moons.com which are pretty much useless. If it looks neat or weird, and is expensive it gets a good review. No connection to actual performance. The guy compares it to some other very similar looking watches all working on a similar principle and costing from 15% to 500% as much in a section labeled value proposition. Why this $9000 one instead of the $40k+ watch none of which are much about keeping time? How is there any value beyond just advertising status? How is there any personal satisfaction? I just don't really grok that whole expensive watch thing.

I get having older quality watches, old pocket watches or something like a Regulator wall clock, grandfather clock or a curiously unique mechanism like an Atmos clock. I don't understand the hundreds of very expensive designs made like very old watches when that was the best you could do in accuracy as new or current products. Same way I don't follow people who like very expensive pocket or fixed blade knives that have a "noted" maker or designer's name attached beyond their utility. I would think getting rep in knive or watch making would be about making an exceptional product and not a sense of marketable style at great expense.

Oh well sorry for the thread drift. I see the products that are the topic of this thread as being equally valid if not more so than expensive watches.
 

Cars-N-Cans

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What is the point of such a review? Reminds me of the audio reviews in 6moons.com which are pretty much useless. If it looks neat or weird, and is expensive it gets a good review. No connection to actual performance. The guy compares it to some other very similar looking watches all working on a similar principle and costing from 15% to 500% as much in a section labeled value proposition. Why this $9000 one instead of the $40k+ watch none of which are much about keeping time? How is there any value beyond just advertising status? How is there any personal satisfaction? I just don't really grok that whole expensive watch thing.

I get having older quality watches, old pocket watches or something like a Regulator wall clock, grandfather clock or a curiously unique mechanism like an Atmos clock. I don't understand the hundreds of very expensive designs made like very old watches when that was the best you could do in accuracy as new or current products. Same way I don't follow people who like very expensive pocket or fixed blade knives that have a "noted" maker or designer's name attached beyond their utility. I would think getting rep in knive or watch making would be about making an exceptional product and not a sense of marketable style at great expense.

Oh well sorry for the thread drift. I see the products that are the topic of this thread as being equally valid if not more so than expensive watches.
I would say that this is what happens after something "peaks." In the context of audio, there are only so many different ways you can make a conventional stereo sound reproduction system. When the existing technological avenues have been exhausted, that is when the "boutique" market takes off. People still want something better and the feel of exclusivity, so the market caters to them with ultra upscale products that claim to deliver the moon and then some, but in reality are either snake oil, overpriced, or just glorified fancy furniture that plays music. They give the illusion of advancement in sound reproduction quality, accuracy, naturalness, or some other aspect, but in reality do nothing but empty bank accounts and end up being a tour-de-force in the placebo effect. Not saying all high-end audio is bad. There are plenty of speakers and electronics that deliver SOTA performance in an upscale package, but there are many more that obviously do not.

Edit: The above probably states the obvious as a response to a somewhat rhetorical question, but still for me once something works, it will only be replaced due to wear-out or failure. Same with my audio equipment. Objectively its transparent so why replace it? I only care about the music, not what it comes through. If people really had a grasp for this and had no other illusions, the high-end audio market would be dead. Why would you want to buy yet another expensive DAC or speakers when the ones you have already work? I'd bet about 90% of the audio market would simply evaporate if people dropped all the pretext and just went off of objective performance. But the lies continue because they need to continue to drive demand by any means necessary, which is how we end up with said snake-oil products.
 
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