MQA entering into administration - comparable to Chapter 11 in the US

[Rottmannash]

Maybe I'm an outlier here. I quite like Roon and find a lot of value in it... MQA, not so much. I generally stream Qobuz, they offer virtually everything that Tidal does and at MQA unfolded audio quality without the need of using an MQA capable DAC. Then again, I would be happy with lossless Redbook.

When did Qobuz begin streaming MQA files?

 

[Mr. Widget]

When did Qobuz begin streaming MQA files?

You misunderstood my post. What I was saying was that if the unfolded MQA was 192/24 on Tidal, then Qobuz typically offers 192/24 lossless files that don't require the MQA process.

 

[Rottmannash]

You misunderstood my post. What I was saying was that if the unfolded MQA was 192/24 on Tidal, then Qobuz typically offers 192/24 lossless files that don't require the MQA BS.

Gotcha

 

[JSmith]

MQA Files For Chapter 11 Protection: One Too Many Losses Or Will It Be Sold Off In "Bit" Sized Pieces?

MQA has filed for the appointment of administrators in the United Kingdom. Will they have to sell off SCL6 to survive?

www.ecoustics.com

We could see a company like TIDAL (which is now owned by Jack Dorsey’s Block, previous known as Square) buy up the remaining components of MQA after an SCL6 sale, if the price is right, and incorporate MQA technology into their tech stack. This is speculation on our part.

What this likely means is MQA has a suitor for SCL6 but the buyer has said they have no interest in owning the rest of MQA. The upside is MQA may get an infusion of cash from the sale of SCL6 while the downside is that same sale is basically an admission that SCL6 is the only viable product in the MQA stable and what is left after the sale has little value.

JSmith

 

[Galliardist]

Technology is secondary when it comes to getting a format adopted. MP3 rose to nearly 100% domination even though AAC at the time produced much better performance.

Well, in that case you can just encode the 24 bit as is in FLAC and be done with it. Wait! It is already done that way.

The challenge with MQA is that it has to dither its side-channel data. That randomization causes FLAC lossless encoding efficiency to reduce. So what it gained in coding efficiency (not encoding all of ultrasonics and bit depth of noise), it gave back part of it in this stage. I don't think they thought this through at the start.

I’m clearly not making my point well enough.

That point is that the strengths of the patented technology have not been properly implemented or have been missed in the use of the commercial product.
The best thing that could happen here would be for SCL6 to be sold to a company that can nurse it into the Bluetooth standards, and for MQA itself to become a set of open source technologies, or to fall into a more favourable and benign licensor (as happened with ARM after its initial failure).

I’m not sure an administrator can realise that result as they have to maximise the short term financial value of the assets.

On the subject of format wars, the "losers" can sometimes come back in different forms and places. AAC is an example of that, as it is now the main format for Apple Music, and is at the heart of other technologies like DAB+ (though that doesn't look like a successful technology right now).

 

[Galliardist]

But 18/96 Flac cannot be played on standard CD player.

Just as MQA "decodes and renders" its files, a piece of receiving software can put back 6 bits of dither at the bottom of an 18 bit file for a standard DAC to process. And if the industry decided that 96/18 is now a format, it will soon be supported in new equipment, just as 24 bit audio and DSD have been.

Though there's really no need now.

 

[Galliardist]

I wonder why such a company would have 4 million pound in yearly costs? They are not making anything physical, they won’t need a vast army of software developers… maybe they have a large legal department…?

SCL6/MQAir didn't just appear out of nowhere.

 

[MattHooper]

On an interview, Bob Stuart talked about the cost of data rates for mobile, and while some people might not worry about that, he said that for a hypothetical guy in Japan, the cost was a big deal. First, let's set aside that data rates are constantly rising, while competition increases and cost for a given data rate drops. While the amount of data to be stream remains constant for a given format. In other words, any such issue with the guy in Japan would be maybe a year away from being irrelevant.

Even without that, he was basically saying that we needed to turn audio production, players, licensing and oversight, to a private entity. Because, apparently, it's too sad that the guy in Japan can only afford 16-bit 44.1k streaming, yet wants something closer to 24-bit 96k...

while listening on a mobile device

(and realistically, probably on earbuds while on a subway train).

Once you realize what an incredibly bad argument there is for the marginal compression aspect, you have to wonder why not just stream 24-bit 96k, if that's perceived to be better than 44.1k. So, the next argument must be that it's better than linear PCM, and in particular better than 24/96. The problem there was that all the available material (AFAIK) was transcoded from existing linear PCM. So, if MQA had a magic sauce that made linear PCM better, why not just build that technology in a player, and skip streaming MQA? Well, less money for MQA. Now, I realize that the full MQA experience would be more end to end—including content production. But, they never argued "we admit it doesn't do much now, but some day, just you wait!" The bottom line is that even if it isn't outright snake oil, they certainly made poor arguments why we needed that level of intrusion from a licensing entity. And they never offered scientific proof that it was a noticeable improvement, much less one that was worth the level of intrusion and the cost over time.

I never thought it had much of a chance, but it was still comforting to read of its demise this morning.

MQA reminded me of those videos promoting Pono, where professional musicians sat in Neil Young's car, then exited claiming it was the best audio experience they'd ever heard in their lives. People who record in the most expensive studios in the world.

Thanks! That distills the basics very well. Frankly I couldn't bother following the billion post threads on this stuff. I never noticed MQA in my streams (even though I have Tidal), my Benchmark DAC doesn't process it. End of story for me so I never thought about it.

 

[Galliardist]

Mate its a bit late to shill MQA now.

Nice out of context quote.
I'm not defending MQA here, certainly not as implemented.

I'm referring to Meridian and Stuart's previous work in digital interfaces (particularly an early network server and Sooloos, and their version of multi-room), DSP, the maintenance of the multi channel music idea in the hiring of the late Michael Gerzon from Ambisonics and the development of Meridian Lossless Packing.

Bob Stuart was highly respected in the industry well before MQA, and that happened for a reason.

 

[chelgrian]

I’m clearly not making my point well enough.

That point is that the strengths of the patented technology have not been properly implemented or have been missed in the use of the commercial product.
The best thing that could happen here would be for SCL6 to be sold to a company that can nurse it into the Bluetooth standards, and for MQA itself to become a set of open source technologies, or to fall into a more favourable and benign licensor (as happened with ARM after its initial failure).

I’m not sure an administrator can realise that result as they have to maximise the short term financial value of the assets.

On the subject of format wars, the "losers" can sometimes come back in different forms and places. AAC is an example of that, as it is now the main format for Apple Music, and is at the heart of other technologies like DAB+ (though that doesn't look like a successful technology right now).

ARM never failed it was spun out of Acorn and was successful long before Acorn failed.

 

[ThatGuyYouKnow]

I ignored MQA until it almost infected the limited edition soundtrack CD market when one of my favorite film scores was released with it.

 

[Galliardist]

@Galliardist I think you are wrong. In the videos he say that the test demonstrate MQA is not lossless.

No, I'm not wrong. What I was saying was that GoldenSound did not realise that MQA was not lossless (let's say not mathematically lossless, per Amir) at the time he designed his tests. As a result of not understanding how MQA works, he submitted test signals that could not be properly encoded. Accordingly, he received warnings from Tidal at the time they went through the encoding process. As a result of trying to run those tests, he discovered that MQA was "not lossless".

@amirm I believe that the GoldenSound tests also effectively proved that for private and small label releases, at least, tracks were run automatically through encoding at Tidal. He received warning messages regarding the signals that couldn't be encoded and these appeared to come via an automatic system from Tidal rather from a human running encoding. It's difficult to see the amount of encoding going on at MQA itself by that stage, though it was obviously MQA and Stuart that encoded all of those early samples that wowed so many reviewers and those in the early demos.

And as an aside to that, it appears that Bob Stuart had access to high quality masters to do those early encodings: that may partly explain the big differences reported with MQA initially - but don't forget that some demos were reportedly run against low quality mp3 tracks, to show the difference that the general public might get from adoption of MQA.

It's not necessarily fair to attack the early reviewers in this case as they may well have had those reported differences in their hands. We'll never know.

EDIT: See the response from @acbarn below. The second paragraph of my post is incorrect.

 

[Galliardist]

ARM never failed it was spun out of Acorn and was successful long before Acorn failed.

Are you claiming that the Archimedes was a commercial success?

 

[GaryH]

@amirm I believe that the GoldenSound tests also effectively proved that for private and small label releases, at least, tracks were run automatically through encoding at Tidal. He received warning messages regarding the signals that couldn't be encoded and these appeared to come via an automatic system from Tidal rather from a human running encoding. It's difficult to see the amount of encoding going on at MQA itself by that stage, though it was obviously MQA and Stuart that encoded all of those early samples that wowed so many reviewers and those in the early demos.

And as an aside to that, it appears that Bob Stuart had access to high quality masters to do those early encodings: that may partly explain the big differences reported with MQA initially - but don't forget that some demos were reportedly run against low quality mp3 tracks, to show the difference that the general public might get from adoption of MQA.

It's not necessarily fair to attack the early reviewers in this case as they may well have had those reported differences in their hands. We'll never know.

Classic bait-and-switch.

 

[Zensō]

@amirm I believe that the GoldenSound tests also effectively proved that for private and small label releases, at least, tracks were run automatically through encoding at Tidal. He received warning messages regarding the signals that couldn't be encoded and these appeared to come via an automatic system from Tidal rather from a human running encoding. It's difficult to see the amount of encoding going on at MQA itself by that stage, though it was obviously MQA and Stuart that encoded all of those early samples that wowed so many reviewers and those in the early demos.

Tidal didn’t encode Goldensound’s MQA files. An independent distributor encoded the files, which were then delivered to Tidal by the distributor. I’ve had this done myself.

 

[Galliardist]

Tidal didn’t encode Goldensound’s MQA files. An independent distributor encoded the files, which were then delivered to Tidal by the distributor. I’ve had this done myself.

Thanks for the clarification. I've added a note to my post.

 

[Galliardist]

Classic bait-and-switch.

But it's far more probably circumstances that decided who's done what when, than a deliberate plan to deceive. I would describe the comparisons between MQA and low grade mp3 files (I'm assuming that the reports I've seen are correct) as dodgy though.

 

[jsrtheta]

That is true (two rounds, at the moment -- I think). But the doors are still open and the lights are still on.
Of course, Elon Musk may have taken their sink.

ahem.

It's hard to keep one's foundering tech companies straight without a scorecard!

Musk will probably be wearing that thing soon.

 

[Axo1989]

Musk will probably be wearing that thing soon.

I assume now—having sold off all the other furniture—he sits, shits and sleeps in it, all on the same day. Hardcore.

 

[jsrtheta]

Twelve pages in this thread so far, and what is to me the most obvious parallel embarrassment has received no mention:

HDCD!