Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[audio2design]

. I frequent most of the hifi forums and use the same screen name everywhere I can, I’m not trolling. I might be representative of what many of us outside of ASR think is being preached here because of whats coming out across the new. Fair enough?

So basically what you are doing is parroting the posts of what is usually a group of about a dozen "loud" posters on any of those forums? They are joined with the usual sprinkling of snake oil supplier rhetoric that is big on insulting ASR people but so small as to be invisible when proving the wild claims they make. When I make those statements it is from experience having gone toe to toe with many of them. As always, quick with the ad-homs but never a shred of evidence other than the bleating "I trust my ears". I have a lot more "ear" testing experience than most often in controlled situations and I don't trust my ears because I know my brain is highly malleable and not evolved for precision.

 

[audio2design]

Do you guys go on harley forums and tell them their bikes are stupid motophoolia and a proper scooter has better power to weigh?

If you're in the scooter business you do. Lol. This forum won't affect those of us passionate about music and home
reproduction.
There's always those of us who need to be right so deeply that we feel a need to convince others of our truth and there's the professionals here that are offering their experience. I don't think the pros are the ones posting this particular religion (science)on the audiophile forums.

Harley owners are generally under no illusions about the superiority of certain aspects of their bikes. That is quite unlike those who espouse cable risers, expensive cables, crazy priced contact cleaner, small acoustic doohickeys, or bow down to the obvious superiority of turntables usually coupled with some technically ignorant comment about digital not being continuous.

This has nothing to do with a passion for music or home reproduction but a dogmatic attachment to how you want to world to work that is quite frankly wrong.

 

[MarkS]

It makes sense to the original post that started this thread. Guys buy little thingys to support their cables because it’s a hobby and fun, just like a Harley owner spending thousands on trinkets that do nothing for the performance.

The difference is that the Harley owner knows perfectly well that the trinkets do nothing for the performance, but in audio the buyer of tweaks almost always believes that their trinkets (eg expensive cables) really do enhance the performance.

EDIT: audio2design made the same point 1 minute ahead of me!

I'd better go buy some magic keyboard spray to enhance my typing speed ...

 

[audio2design]

Remember the 200mpg carbeurator? Many jumped on that bandwagon and fought vehemently that it must be true but those awful sciency types simply pointed out the physical impossibility.

The only other place I see this deep attachment to wrong is with homeopathy, flat earth followers and people on venture stock exchanges deeply emotionally attached to the most recent better mouse trap or perpetual motion claim to the point that even when someone obviously a lot more knowledgeable points out the flaws they fight vehemently.

 

[Chrispy]

I frequent most of the hifi forums and use the same screen name everywhere I can, I’m not trolling. I might be representative of what many of us outside of ASR think is being preached here because of whats coming out across the new. Fair enough?

What fora/groups are they particularly? There's not much good stuff out there aside from a very few like ASR.

 

[steve59]

Gentlemen have a great day, I guess i don’t care enough about what I’m trying to communicate to argue about it.

 

[BluesDaddy]

Gentlemen have a great day, I guess i don’t care enough about what I’m trying to communicate to argue about it.

Repeat after me, Steve: "I was wrong". It doesn't hurt and will actually be a liberating experience.

 

[Chrispy]

Gentlemen have a great day, I guess i don’t care enough about what I’m trying to communicate to argue about it.

So you really have no point at all? Big surprise.

 

[dtaylo1066]

One can pick their side of the objective vs subjective argument, I could care less. I would say there there seems a penchant on this forum by some members to mock or deride those consumers or reviewers who shop or believe differently -- particularly in the face of ASR data. I really don't care how people shop for, buy or review audio equipment, or what audio theories or marketing they might believe in. That is their business, and their right. I am quite content to look at ASR data to inform me and help guide the product, category and purchasing questions or decisions I may have.

This is a hobby based on an illusion, not life and death. Most recordings we listen to are not even of live, one-time events, but of studio manipulated multi-events. I suggest some lighten up and spend more time enjoying the illusion.

 

[raistlin65]

One can pick their side of the objective vs subjective argument, I could care less. I would say there there seems a penchant on this forum by some members to mock or deride those consumers or reviewers who shop or believe differently -- particularly in the face of ASR data. I really don't care how people shop for, buy or review audio equipment, or what audio theories or marketing they might believe in. That is their business, and their right. I am quite content to look at ASR data to inform me and help guide the product, category and purchasing questions or decisions I may have.

Please come help out for a few weeks over at Reddit's r/headphoneadvice and r/budgetaudiophile. See all the people who do not have a lot of disposable income. Help them to optimize sound performance for their budget. And then realize how much it does matter for a lot of people.

This is a hobby based on an illusion, not life and death.

Let's not equate the marketing cons that go on in this hobby as some kind of harmless illusion. The problem is that so many people don't know it is illusion. And the con is so successful that consumers pass it on to other consumers.

 

[Ken1951]

Please come help out for a few weeks over at Reddit's r/headphoneadvice and r/budgetaudiophile. See all the people who do not have a lot of disposable income. Help them to optimize sound performance for their budget. And then realize how much it does matter for a lot of people.



Let's not equate the marketing cons that go on in this hobby as some kind of harmless illusion. The problem is that so many people don't know it is illusion. And the con is so successful that consumers pass it on to other consumers.

Wonderfully put. Car customizers don't believe that their paint job or pin striping will make their cars faster.

Unlike audio funsters who attribute extreme results from raising their speaker cables 6 inches off the floor, or green markers, or magic stones, or fancy-dancy cables, or other non-sensical things. And every tweak reveals some new and massive improvement. Every equipment change is for the better. Burn-in is a factor for all audio equipment.

These funsters then promote/foist all these cable and similar phenomena off on unsuspecting folks who can't afford it. Making them think that unless they spend thousands on a headphone and more thousands on a cable and many more thousands on a DAC/Amp they won't actually "hear" the music. LPs are the only "real" sound. All tube amps are the best. Measurements tell you nothing.

I'm not in the market for anything and don't have a dog in any of these fights, but appreciate the information provided here as it reminds of the "old" days when specs mattered and people didn't natter on about interconnects/magic feet under amps/magic power cables and the like. We focused on cartridges and speakers because they truly made a difference. Electronics needed reliability/ features/ and good power, frequency, and distortion specs. And even then, 50 years ago, we knew that matching levels was the key because without that whatever you heard was likely down to volume differences in most cases.

 

[JuliaCoder]

I wonder if there has been a revealing study of the psychology of hobbies. The model train set some guy spent thousands of hours trying to make it feel real and his widow throws it away. The billionaire spending $30 M per year on a yacht he rarely sails on. Tour de France cycles for average riders. Every American hobby seems to have degenerated into this.

 

[steve59]

You(not you personally)heaven forbid,just keep going around in circles til we give up. Life's too short. I have no problem with Harleys, Hondas or rich guys spending 10's of thousands of dollars on cables. I do take issue with people telling me what to think. Good day

 

[raistlin65]

...I do take issue with people telling me what to think. Good day

You're on an objectivist forum where people are obviously interested in facts, accuracy, and well-informed opinions.

So when you make sweeping generalizations like people on this forum care more about measurements than sound quality. And ludicrous assertions like science is a religion, and this site is skewed to favor one brand, what did you expect?

There's an old saying that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But some opinions are necessarily better than others.

 

[CrankyRat]

The only reason nobody makes graphic equalisers anymore is because they cause so much difficulty for reviewers

Now that is an interesting assertion! Do tell. I'm genuinely in the dark but have considered getting a component GEQ these days. I had a friend that had one back in the 90's and knew how to use it.

 

[CrankyRat]

I was amazed to visit a "high-end" audio store in San Francisco that told me I'd need to schedule a speaker listening session at least two weeks in advance, and that the associated fee would apply to any purchase over $5,000.

Opted to purchase elsewhere. They did have some sweet gear, though. I don't begrudge them their business model, but it doesn’t really work for me.

As a former salesman this is all about making the customer feel special. When they come in for their appointment you faun over them like their upper class. Not unlike your real estate agent driving you around in a Mercedes catering to your every whim. You are the King or Queen.

The purpose is to create an atmosphere of exclusivity. Most people are very influenced to buy something if it separates them from the herd. Make them feel special and superior. Works every time unless the customer is very aware of these manipulations.

You definitely don't want to hear what they say behind your back. You are just a "mark".

 

[Ken1951]

I'm confused.

I know I'm old and my opinions are irrelevant, but I'd like to clarify some things from my point of view.

The things that are important are food, shelter and clothing. Those are the things that you worry about "affording". Hobbies are something that you either can afford (in which case spend as you wish) or you cannot afford (in which case don't spend ..... period.) Not only that, but the sensible way to enter into a hobby is to learn all that you can about it before you spend your money. In that process, you will undoubtedly be exposed to shills, con men and thieves. If you think otherwise, you're ............. naive. You will also be exposed to happy, satisfied users who will help you with real-world advice, as long as you make an effort to search them out.
It's up to you to sort the good from the bad, and it likely won't happen overnight. So comport yourself accordingly.

And it is my opinion ...... my cruel, unsympathetic and heartless opinion, because I'm a bad person ....... that anyone who spends " ... thousands on a headphone and more thousands on a cable and many more thousands on a DAC/Amp ..." and gets taken in is both a wastrel and lacking in the basics of common sense, to put it nicely.

Don't pet strange dogs. They can bite. Jim Taylor

Really?? Wasn't directed to you.

@AdamG247 Please delete my account. I'll continue to lurk around and read what stuff interests me. I'm obviously deluded.

So, @AdamG247 please delete me from this timeline. Many thanks...

 

[CrankyRat]

My god, I love this site/forum. Very high logical to illogical ratio. And, my god, you want evidence for your assertions!

I begged to have my account removed from head-fi.org with its Mod Troll patrols (to be fair, they granted my request). Left headphones.com where no assertion without evidence or logic can be confronted (let's please be nice!). I'm hoping to be banned from SBAF by testing the boundaries. An ugly vindictive site, so wrong in so many ways it makes me believe in conspiracy theories. But I have failed, can't be nasty enough for SBAF.

Hope was being crushed until I found this site. Thank you everyone!

 

[Newman]

I'm confused.

I know I'm old and my opinions are irrelevant, but I'd like to clarify some things from my point of view.

The things that are important are food, shelter and clothing.

This is way short of the mark.

How would you like to have food, shelter and clothing….and zero education?

How would you like to have food, shelter and clothing….and live in a war zone?

How would you like to have food, shelter and clothing….and live in the middle of a plague?

How would you like to have food, shelter and clothing….and be regularly assaulted by your close group members, including sexually?

There are hierarchies of human needs, reaching well down into psychological and spiritual matters….. and they are all needs.

Those are the things that you worry about "affording". Hobbies are something that you either can afford (in which case spend as you wish) or you cannot afford (in which case don't spend ..... period.)

If your point is that we are discussing first-world problems, then you could have just said that, instead of over-reaching.

Not only that, but the sensible way to enter into a hobby is to learn all that you can about it before you spend your money. In that process, you will undoubtedly be exposed to shills, con men and thieves. If you think otherwise, you're ............. naive. You will also be exposed to happy, satisfied users who will help you with real-world advice, as long as you make an effort to search them out.
It's up to you to sort the good from the bad, and it likely won't happen overnight. So comport yourself accordingly.

And it is my opinion ...... my cruel, unsympathetic and heartless opinion, because I'm a bad person ....... that anyone who spends " ... thousands on a headphone and more thousands on a cable and many more thousands on a DAC/Amp ..." and gets taken in is both a wastrel and lacking in the basics of common sense, to put it nicely.

Jim Taylor

Fraud and scamming of first world people is not a non-issue, sorry.

And your comment above hints that you are of the opinion that marketing only works on fools. Incorrect. It works on everyone — even you and I. And that is why fraudulent and deceptive marketing needs to be treated seriously, and not brushed under the rug as not being a “food, shelter and clothing issue”.

 

[Newman]

Really?? Wasn't directed to you.

@AdamG247 Please delete my account. I'll continue to lurk around and read what stuff interests me. I'm obviously deluded.

So, @AdamG247 please delete me from this timeline. Many thanks...

Hey Ken, stay the course mate! Your comments are spot on and appreciated.

cheers