Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[David Harper]

IMO the law of diminishing returns is more evident in high end audio than in any other example that I can think of. A BMW M3 costs three times as much as my Honda civic. But it's performance is objectively and demonstrably far superior to that of my car. Civic; 0 to 60 in 8 seconds.
M3; 0 to 60 in 4 seconds. Civic top speed; approx 120 mph. M3 top speed; 180 mph.
But in the case of a 40K stereo compared to mine, not so much. My system ( Yammy pre-pro, Schiit Vidar amp, Oppo bluray player, magnepan speakers) costed approx. 3K and I can absolutely guarantee that your 40K system does not sound over ten times as good as mine.

 

[ahofer]

IMO the law of diminishing returns is more evident in high end audio than in any other example that I can think of. A BMW M3 costs three times as much as my Honda civic. But it's performance is objectively and demonstrably far superior than that of my car. Civic; 0 to 60 in 8 seconds.
M3; 0 to 60 in 4 seconds.
But in the case of a 40K stereo compared to mine, not so much. My system ( Yammy pre-pro, Schiit Vidar amp, Oppo bluray player, magnepan speakers) costed approx. 3K and I can absolutely guarantee that your 40K system does not sound over ten times as good as mine.

I’d agree, but I have no idea how you would quantify the ”goodness” of sound. Andy Singer did once tell me that my Harbeths would sound “20% better” with their stands (Or maybe it was the anniversary edition vs the regular one, can’t remember). I was impressed with his precision, but he should have said 21.5%.

 

[Emlin]

IMO the law of diminishing returns is more evident in high end audio than in any other example that I can think of. A BMW M3 costs three times as much as my Honda civic. But it's performance is objectively and demonstrably far superior to that of my car. Civic; 0 to 60 in 8 seconds.
M3; 0 to 60 in 4 seconds.
But in the case of a 40K stereo compared to mine, not so much. My system ( Yammy pre-pro, Schiit Vidar amp, Oppo bluray player, magnepan speakers) costed approx. 3K and I can absolutely guarantee that your 40K system does not sound over ten times as good as mine.

So sound quality can be equated to acceleration?

 

[restorer-john]

Very much so. That's why I've railed against so-called HiRes recordings, as the only thing above the 20kHz of CD is SMPS and once CRT whistles, fan-noise, and other non-musical sounds.

The 15kHz bandwidth of FM radio is adequate for pretty much any purpose. In my younger days at the Harris factory, I heard 10kHz stereo AM , and yes, doing an AB comparison with the CD, there was a slight reduction in brightness, but without the direct comparison, it wasn't obvious there was anything missing.

There's just so much shit talked about the need for extraordinary bandwidths, bit depths and dynamic range when real life isn't like that.

S

Well, why not just draw a line at 20kHz and call it done?

Every D/A converter, preamplifier and power amplifier needs to produce full output at its rated distortion, S/N, etc from 20Hz to 20kHz. No messing around and no excuses given. Seems fair, right?

The thing is, to do that, the device must have a bandwidth greatly in excess of 20kHz and that's where the BS and the ducking and weaving comes in.

 

[FrantzM]

So sound quality can be equated to acceleration?

No.
It is however equally measurable.

 

[Emlin]

No.
It is however equally measurable.

Both are measurable, but it was claimed that they were equatable.

 

[David Harper]

My point is that compared to my civic 70k for an M3 is more or less reasonable in terms of cost/benefit ratio.
40k for a stereo is not.

 

[Emlin]

My point is that compared to my civic 70k for an M3 is more or less reasonable in terms of cost/benefit ratio.
40k for a stereo is not.

If you think that the only meaningful measurement of a car is its acceleration you may be onto something. Otherwise, not

 

[David Harper]

If you think that the only meaningful measurement of a car is its acceleration you may be onto something. Otherwise, not

acceleration was only one example I gave. There are many others I could have listed; handling and cornering, interior appointments, stopping distance, body rigidity, engine design, and on and on.

 

[Emlin]

acceleration was only one example I gave. There are many others I could have listed; handling and cornering, interior appointments, stopping distance, body rigidity, engine design, and on and on.

And how do you correlate all those to the performance of a sound system?

 

[ahofer]

The car analogy came up in another thread - in that case talking about the driving feel and quality of upholstery. A double blind car-driving test would be difficult to contrive (now audiophiles will seize on that as another reason double blind tests are bad), but I suspect, at least, that you could tell the difference between an M3 and a budget coupe/sedan. The real distinction of audio (other than speakers) is that people mostly cannot tell the difference (if they don't already know it).

Sorry for all the parentheses.

 

[Emlin]

I

The car analogy came up in another thread - in that case talking about the driving feel and quality of upholstery. A double blind car-driving test would be difficult to contrive (now audiophiles will seize on that as another reason double blind tests are bad), but I suspect, at least, that you could tell the difference between an M3 and a budget coupe/sedan. The real distinction of audio (other than speakers) is that people mostly cannot tell the difference (if they don't already know it).

Sorry for all the parentheses.

I can't and don't drive, so I can't compare either. That makes me not most people. My question is: why would you make an irrelevant comparison?

 

[BDWoody]

IMO the law of diminishing returns is more evident in high end audio than in any other example that I can think of. A BMW M3 costs three times as much as my Honda civic. But it's performance is objectively and demonstrably far superior to that of my car.

I

I can't and don't drive, so I can't compare either. That makes me not most people. My question is: why would you make an irrelevant comparison?

The comparison was about relative value. He abbreviated all of the ways the M3 may be superior, but his point was in very many ways, it can be shown to deliver better performance among metrics typically used to compare vehicle performance. You pay more, you get more.

In high end audio, you can pay more, and get less.

Is that irrelevant?

 

[David Harper]

I


I can't and don't drive, so I can't compare either. That makes me not most people. My question is: why would you make an irrelevant comparison?

It is precisely the opposite of an irrelevant comparison. It's a very good example of differing cost/benefit ratios.

 

[Zensō]

My question is: why would you make an irrelevant comparison?

My question is: why would you keep harping on about this when his intention was clear?

 

[Emlin]

The comparison was about relative value. He abbreviated all of the ways the M3 may be superior, but his point was in very many ways, it can be shown to deliver better performance among metrics typically used to compare vehicle performance. You pay more, you get more.

In high end audio, you can pay more, and get less.

Is that irrelevant?

I get what you are saying, but how can you quantify the difference. MPG might be one way against SPL, but YMMV

 

[Emlin]

My question is: why would you keep harping on this when his intention was clear?

I think we were both harping on, but no, I don't get the comparison. Maybe just me. I'll duck out now. Nothing bad intentioned.

 

[BDWoody]

I get what you are saying, but how can you quantify the difference. MPG might be one way against SPL, but YMMV

Well, the music made by the 4L NA V8 as it climbs through 8,000 RPM's (which can only happen legally here in the US in first and second gears) would be one that could be quantified for those of us silly enough to consider exhaust note (music) as part of the purchase decision.

I will likely keep the M3 forever because of that amazing sound.

If you are looking for mileage above all else, the metrics of this car wouldn't matter to you. (@14mpg).

 

[Pdxwayne]

Well, the music made by the 4L NA V8 as it climbs through 8,000 RPM's would be one that could be quantified for those of us silly enough to consider exhaust note (music) as part of the purchase decision.

I will likely keep the M3 forever because of that amazing sound.

If you are looking for mileage above all else, the metrics of this car wouldn't matter to you. (@14mpg).

You may want to drive it forever....But can you maintain it forever?
; )

 

[BDWoody]

You may want to drive it forever....But can you maintain it forever?
; )

Wait, what... They require maintenance?!