Measurable aspects of sound perception

[pozz]

That's a very nice room. Which of those components is not a PS Audio product? And what is the methodology for their blind testing? And where are the results of the tests published?

Speakers are Infinity IRS V, absorbers/diffusors are from DaaD and RPG, and chairs are from Ikea

PS Audio expects people to take its word for its claims. They aren't open about their procedures or measured figures.

 

[audiophile]

Which of those components is not a PS Audio product?

Speakers, all cables (except power cords), turntable.

 

[maxxevv]

Speakers are Infinity IRS V, absorbers/diffusors are from DaaD and RPG, and chairs are from Ikea

PS Audio expects people to take its word for its claims. They aren't open about their procedures or measured figures.

I should take some posed picts the next time I attend a small conference with nice carpeting and chairs and then superimpose some audio equipment and then claim some fantastical results from "my tests", nope, its my word on it and nope, you're not going to get any published results....

 

[audiophile]

PS Audio expects people to take its word for its claims. They aren't open about their procedures or measured figures.

Quite the contrary: they say you do not have to believe them, just come and listen first hand, any day during working hours, no prior appointment needed.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Quite the contrary: they say you do not have to believe them, just come and listen first hand, any day during working hours, no prior appointment needed.

Again, what are the specifics of their test methodology? Is it a blind test? Is everything carefully volume-matched? Are we able to confirm that only the specific thing being compared is changing? I mean going over to Paul's to give his system a listen would be fun, but it's meaningless in so far as confirming that we can distinguish between one thing and another in any real sense.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Speakers, all cables (except power cords), turntable.

lol, thanks. Yes I knew that.

 

[pozz]

Again, what are the specifics of their test methodology? Is it a blind test? Is everything carefully volume-matched? Are we able to confirm that only the specific thing being compared is changing? I mean going over to Paul's to give his system a listen would be fun, but it's meaningless in so far as confirming that we can distinguish between one thing and another in any real sense.

This is the real issue. Amir posted this article a long time ago: Sensitivity & Reliability of ABX Blind Testing .Summary is that no one could reliably distinguish any differences at all until proper controls were set up.

 

[pozz]

Speakers, all cables (except power cords), turntable.

Don't they use their firehose AC12s and in-house power outlets/receptacles? I know they used to produce speaker cables as well. I think in one of the earlier videos Paul said that he was given silver conductor interconnects from AudioQuest for the original listening room.

 

[audiophile]

Don't they use their firehose AC12s and in-house power outlets/receptacles? I know they used to produce speaker cables as well. I think in one of the earlier videos Paul said that he was given silver conductor interconnects from AudioQuest for the original listening room.

They should, of course, use their own power cables in their listening room. But I guess they will gladly set up a blind comparison for anyone to compare it with regular cables. And yes, Paul mentioned AudioQuest on numerous occasions, including that video where he spoke about USB cable differences and how he can demonstrate it to anyone who visits them in Boulder. I'd love to go some day, but I live outside the US, so that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[pozz]

They should, of course, use their own power cables in their listening room. But I guess they will gladly set up a blind comparison for anyone to compare it with regular cables. And yes, Paul mentioned AudioQuest on numerous occasions, including that video where he spoke about USB cable differences and how he can demonstrate it to anyone who visits them in Boulder. I'd love to go some day, but I live outside the US, so that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

Same, just to hear that set-up. Maybe at some point I'll get the chance.

 

[pozz]

Just something a bit older (2016) I found from PS Audio while going through old threads: https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/the-lanrover/

This kind of product really depletes any credibility they might have for claims.

 

[Wombat]

OP: Measurable aspects of sound perception.

Haven't noticed any substantive comments re measurements nor how a comparative reference is determined to validate such measurements.

Blind individuals use sound perception for echo navigation in their near environment. No doubt this has been researched and published.

 

[Emlin]

Hi solderdude,

Think everyone had the chance to tell their opinion also and disagreeing and that's fine for me. For a thorough exchange of arguments that our opinion is based on, we better sit an evening together........ But what is the point ?

You think that some things can be proven by certain test methods.
You will only be convinced of the outcome if you first trust the certain test method but on what base ?
Again it is your brain with all it's experience and perspective that tells you whether the test method is trustworthy.

I doubted the effect of ethernet cabling and switches for a long time. Around six years ago getting one ethernet cable to try from my local dealer and experiencing it for a week in my home-setup with extensive listening had me convinced. I believe it gives a significant improvement in my audio-setup including my hearing system.
And indeed, enjoy the music more during a quiet evening but the music I play then is different. It's again the brain that makes the choices; Nothing wrong with that I think...........

Spare me your anecdotes, please. Did your wife (or someone else's) walk in and say, "What's changed dear, it's so much more dynamic now?"

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Just something a bit older (2016) I found from PS Audio while going through old threads: https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/the-lanrover/

This kind of product really depletes any credibility they might have for claims.

lol...$599

 

[LTig]

[LTig: a mixture of what I wrote interspersed with comments by PeterZui in bold]
Many of us have once believed (so this site is of remaining members who were willing to be converted ?) in unfounded claims like those you've thrown in. But other than the majority of still believing subjectivists (aren't we all without realizing it ?) many have had revealing experiences (your brain has told you it was revealing, was this by reasoning or listening ?)

If you had read the revealing stories you would not ask this question.

which told us that one cannot rely on human hearing (why not? a lot of animals have proven they can survive because they have a well trained auditory system, I don't know of one that can survive because of "scientific" knowledge) without controls ,

The hearings sense did not evolve for listening to music or measuring sounds but for survival. Communication improved survival so the human hearing sense developed into what it is today, and why music has an emotional impact on humans is yet unknown (as far as I know). In some respects the combination of 2 ears and a brain work wonders. e.g. when suppressing reflections in rooms. In other respects the hearing sense is very unreliable and inprecise, e.g. detecting absolute frequencies or timing, and do not forget the masking effects which even work backwards in time (and allowed lossy compression in the first place). You cannot just ignore all those shortcomings.

and which led to a change in what one can take as proof (DBT) and what not (subjective reviews without controls). And this is based on hard facts, the results of 80 years of scientific research, most of which is disregarded by subjectivists (aren't we all without realizing it ?) with the turn of a hand because "I can hear it so it must be true".(So you don't take your own auditory system (= your brain) seriously anymore ? Who or what is trying to fool you except you ? ............You choose to trust your reasoning brain system above your auditory brain system)

Of course I trust my logic more than my ears. You do so as well - or do you still believe the earth is flat (your eyes certainly tells you so), and the landing on the moon was filmed by Stanley Kubrick in a film studio (You haven't been on the moon so you cannot trust that others were there)? I don't think I fool myself when I don't rely on my senses in those cases where I know they cannot be trusted.

Have a look a optical illusions. Using very simple basic tools (like using your own finger to hide a part of an image) shows that you cannot trust your eyes telling the truth. If you know you cannot trust your eyes what makes you think you could trust your ears? (we have two choices, trust our auditory and hearing system or don't trust them but then we should have a better alternative. I'll stick to the sensory perception systems that made us human beings during evolution)

The better alternative exists, @amirm has one (AP555), I have one (RME ADI-2 PRO fs), a few other members as well.

You wrote that you're an EE. If you really stick to your personal sensory perception systems I assume that you measure the voltage of batteries by licking (works roughly with 9V block batteries). I prefer to use a much more precise voltage meter.

 

[PeterZui]

If you had read the revealing stories you would not ask this question. I just read f.e. the story of solderdude proving that his truth is the "one" by tricking a customer who also wanted to be nice to an employer/adviser that came servicing him; From my perspective a real salesman that cannot be trusted because he doesn't trust others and just seeking for evidence that he is "right". I would not call this story as revealing but just manipulating. For sound differences you have to convince yourself by listening to your music, not by listening to others. If you don't hear a difference during extensive listening on your own in your home environment; it's OK, if you; do it's also OK. Don't let anyone talk you into it or out of it!

The hearings sense did not evolve for listening to music or measuring sounds but for survival. I agree on the music (=emotion) part. Communication improved survival (don't get the relevance of communication in a discussion on audio quality as communication these days is all about quantity and whether we will survive with it I doubt very much) so the human hearing sense developed (on this site I get the impression it has not developed, that it can be fooled (of course), and that we have to stand up against this phenomenon en we only can rely on measurements) into what it is today, and why music has an emotional impact on humans is yet unknown (as far as I know). In some respects the combination of 2 ears and a brain work wonders. e.g. when suppressing reflections in rooms. In other respects the hearing sense is very unreliable and inprecise, e.g. detecting absolute frequencies or timing, and do not forget the masking effects which even work backwards in time (and allowed lossy compression in the first place). You cannot just ignore all those shortcomings. (Excuse me!! , the hearing sense is extremely sensitive for timing errors and non harmonic distortions. This sense is made to survive, you can even enjoy a Vinyl record with it's noise but still hear a lot of detail in the recording because your hearing system can filter the noise out. It's like surviving in the wind but have to be alert for "abnormal dangerous sounds"; Our brain was trained to do so. To enjoy music we do not have to hear absolute frequencies but our hearing system is extremely sensitive for distortions that are not natural that can spoil the perception and cause listening fatigue.

Of course I trust my logic more than my ears. You do so as well - or do you still believe the earth is flat (your eyes certainly tells you so), and the landing on the moon was filmed by Stanley Kubrick in a film studio (You haven't been on the moon so you cannot trust that others were there)? I don't think I fool myself when I don't rely on my senses in those cases where I know they cannot be trusted. I enjoy a sun-downer at the beach and it looks flat (I am fooled !) and very beautiful. Knowing the earth isn't flat doesn't improve my perception. In other words: measuring and knowing the absolute frequency of a sound doesn't make it's perception any worse or better.

The better alternative exists, @amirm has one (AP555), I have one (RME ADI-2 PRO fs), a few other members as well. As soon as they are able to measure the audible effects of f.e. an ethernet cable in an audio setup I might become interested. Till that time I will only trust on my own auditory system.

You wrote that you're an EE. If you really stick to your personal sensory perception systems I assume that you measure the voltage of batteries by licking (works roughly with 9V block batteries). I prefer to use a much more precise voltage meter.

hope you agree; this one was too silly

 

[PeterZui]

I’d say step one of achieving a holographic soundstage is moving your speakers well off the front wall.

Yet if you ever click on one of the “show your system pics!” on one of these forums the vast majority of people will have their speakers 6 inches or less away from the front wall.

It’s important to keep this in mind because these people likely have never heard a system “disappear” in the room and leave you with a real holographic performance of a recording. They have no frame of reference.

I know I was gobsmacked the first time I heard some large and very expensive Sonus Faber speakers throwing off a massive and holographic soundstage behind the loudspeakers.

Hi Darkweb, I agree and my first memorable experience was at a hifi dealer with the Rumours LP recording of Fleetwood Mac back in 1977. I could pinpoint the locations of the instruments in the room. Something I never experienced before and very impressive and enjoyable. Anyway, up to these days still a very good recording and sounds most impressive as DSD recording in my audio set-up

 

[PeterZui]

Spare me your anecdotes, please. Did your wife (or someone else's) walk in and say, "What's changed dear, it's so much more dynamic now?"

Hi Emlin, I was puzzled why you didn't like my anecdotes and you were especially interested in what my wife (or someone else) said about dynamics........... Think I know now; I stated somewhere, something that you don't agree on....Hope we can agree that's your problem; get out of your jail and become dynamic ! just joking, don't take it all to serious...............

 

[PeterZui]

OP: Measurable aspects of sound perception.

Haven't noticed any substantive comments re measurements nor how a comparative reference is determined to validate such measurements.

Blind individuals use sound perception for echo navigation in their near environment. No doubt this has been researched and published.

Hi Wombat, I have a friend who is QA manager and validation specialist and audiophile. I guess you could be the first two but never the last. Please inform me how to validate this perception.

 

[PeterZui]

@PeterZui So you mean rather than believing the measurement of a device using a device that was made specifically to measure said device, we should listen to the website who told you to buy $1000 unobtanium cable?

Or we should abandon all review altogether because everyone listen to things differently and can't be measured?

Which one is your point?

I feel a bit uncomfortable about this thread.

I don't know exactly what has been going on but I was lured here by the title, 'Measurable aspects of sound perception', an excellent subject for this board and one I was hoping for far more insight then we've actually had.

Instead it seems, and I don't know the exact facts, that one Peter Zui was invited on this board to discuss the subject but it appears without being told the nature of this place. He has therefore been shot down on a number of subjective points he made. Now I'm not saying that some of the criticism wasn't justified but it seems to me rather rude to attack someone who is here by invitation. Was he not warned about the nature of this site.

Whilst I accept the tag 'Come here to have fun, be ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously', the uninitiated may not see it that way.

Hi ViperScythe, thx for your open view on this. I don't think I have many credits here on this site by giving my opinions but think I can handle this. I can also add I'm a strongly convinced atheist as that might trigger some others to state that not I, but they are right. I would say: dare doubting, respect every individual opinion and try to understand others, and create your own truth/opinion. I dare say many on this site might be afraid of being open minded and lack respectfulness to other opinions. Hope this remark wil initiate an improvement.