Manually time-aligning subwoofer(s) to mains - how to

[Foly83]

Hello
Sorry for getting back to you so late.
I had a quick look at your measurement.
What I noticed first of all.
In contrast to your subwoofer, your front is extremely quiet.
You can adjust this in REW. But I would ask you to take two more measurements.
The front should achieve enough room gain when measuring.
I would like to see your front completely to be able to determine where the peaks and dips are.

Proceed as follows.

Time Ref on
Normal measurement at normal speed.
Front left 20-20000
Front right 20-20000 (to see if the alignment is correct)
Front left and right together
Sub 20-20000

Further questions.
What do you use to control the subwoofer?
Mini DSP, AVR?
How far away is the subwoofer from the REF loudspeaker in cm?
Are the front speakers already equipped with eq's?
Is the sub already with eq's?
Is the front aligned correctly (same distance to the microphone?)

Supplement
I would like to see the subwoofer complete so that the time length is the same. I look at measurements a little differently like this explanation in this example. That way I can rule out some things.
The frequency band of the subwoofer doesn't look good either. Have you tried different positions?

best regards Alex

 

[ninetylol]

Hello
Sorry for getting back to you so late.
I had a quick look at your measurement.
What I noticed first of all.
In contrast to your subwoofer, your front is extremely quiet.
You can adjust this in REW. But I would ask you to take two more measurements.
The front should achieve enough room gain when measuring.
I would like to see your front completely to be able to determine where the peaks and dips are.

Proceed as follows.

Time Ref on
Normal measurement at normal speed.
Front left 20-20000
Front right 20-20000 (to see if the alignment is correct)
Front left and right together
Sub 20-20000

Further questions.
What do you use to control the subwoofer?
Mini DSP, AVR?
How far away is the subwoofer from the REF loudspeaker in cm?
Are the front speakers already equipped with eq's?
Is the sub already with eq's?
Is the front aligned correctly (same distance to the microphone?)
View attachment 364332
Supplement
I would like to see the subwoofer complete so that the time length is the same. I look at measurements a little differently like this explanation in this example. That way I can rule out some things.
The frequency band of the subwoofer doesn't look good either. Have you tried different positions?

best regards Alex

What do you use to control the subwoofer?
Equalizer Apo copy L+R channel to another output so i can control it better with filters own eq etc.

How far away is the subwoofer from the REF loudspeaker in cm?
about 200-210cm

Are the front speakers already equipped with eq's?
not yet

Is the sub already with eq's?
not yet

Is the front aligned correctly (same distance to the microphone?)
yes

 

[8x24 inch]

Good acoustic work with the room and a touch-up with Audiolense

 

[dualazmak]

The time alignment tuning looks good, but what would be the SPL valleys??
Can we see general room air-sound FQ-SPL spectrum covering 20 Hz - 22 kHz in 50 dB vertical scale without too much smoothing measured at your listening position?

 

[8x24 inch]

The problems from 150 to 300 Hz are minimized with the body in the listening position, but other things are more affected. Difficult to get a good measurement when I am sitting in the listening position.
Measured at 2.75 meters. 1/24. OB from 70 to 600 z

 

[dualazmak]

Difficult to get a good measurement when I am sitting in the listening position.

The valleys in Fq-SPL spectrum are almost identical to those I assumed/thought.

Objective measurements and subjective assessments/tunings at your/our listening position are always our final goal since we enjoy listening to music (not test tones) at our listening position.

Too much FQ-SPL flattening and/or too much time-alignment tunings would sometimes result in rather strange total subjective sensation, like giving some techno-like, non-natural, artificial-nuance sound.

Since we are in this exciting ASR Forum, objective measurements and sharing the data thereof are always nice and invaluable. Based on such objective data, however, you would please trust your ears and brain towards optimization of total sound at your listening position in your room acoustic environment; Dr. Floyd Tolle kindly and repeatedly pointed that our ears and brain are not identical to measurement microphone.

By the way, for your subjective optimization, I highly recommend you establishing and keeping your own consistent "audio reference/sampler music playlist" consists of excellent-recording-quality music tracks selected from various music genres of your music preference.

Just for your reference, you may find my such "audio reference/sampler music playlist" here #1 on my thread entitled "An Attempt Sharing Reference Quality Music Playlist: at least a portion and/or whole track being analyzed by 3D color spectrum of Adobe Audition".

Furthermore, if you would be interested, you would please visit #931, #1009 on my project thread for the details of my latest system setup including my own time-alignment tunings and Fq-SPL spectrum (not so smoothed) at my listening position.

 

[levimax]

The problems from 150 to 300 Hz are minimized with the body in the listening position, but other things are more affected. Difficult to get a good measurement when I am sitting in the listening position.
Measured at 2.75 meters. 1/24. OB from 70 to 600 z

View attachment 514437

Can you change scale to 50 db so it shows 5 dB highlighted grid. This is the unofficial ASR standard. Your scale is quite zoomed in and makes things look worse than it really is. Is this a MMM measurement or a single position measurement? If a single position then a MMM would be more acurate to what you hear and will look much better.

 

[8x24 inch]

The valleys in Fq-SPL spectrum are almost identical to those I assumed/thought.

Objective measurements and subjective assessments/tunings at your/our listening position are always our final goal since we enjoy listening to music (not test tones) at our listening position.

Too much FQ-SPL flattening and/or too much time-alignment tunings would sometimes result in rather strange total subjective sensation, like giving some techno-like, non-natural, artificial-nuance sound.

Since we are in this exciting ASR Forum, objective measurements and sharing the data thereof are always nice and invaluable. Based on such objective data, however, you would please trust your ears and brain towards optimization of total sound at your listening position in your room acoustic environment; Dr. Floyd Tolle kindly and repeatedly pointed that our ears and brain are not identical to measurement microphone.

By the way, for your subjective optimization, I highly recommend you establishing and keeping your own consistent "audio reference/sampler music playlist" consists of excellent-recording-quality music tracks selected from various music genres of your music preference.

Just for your reference, you may find my such "audio reference/sampler music playlist" here #1 on my thread entitled "An Attempt Sharing Reference Quality Music Playlist: at least a portion and/or whole track being analyzed by 3D color spectrum of Adobe Audition".

Furthermore, if you would be interested, you would please visit #931, #1009 on my project thread for the details of my latest system setup including my own time-alignment tunings and Fq-SPL spectrum (not so smoothed) at my listening position.

I've come a long way from using a lot of DSP to using it very carefully. I think this plays anazing. The measurement is helpful, but the ears determine the final result.

Previously, measurements looked like this,(1/24) but it didn't sound anywhere near as entertaining. Weird sound.
I'm bad at English so I won't be writing much here.

 

[8x24 inch]

Can you change scale to 50 db so it shows 5 dB highlighted grid. This is the unofficial ASR standard. Your scale is quite zoomed in and makes things look worse than it really is. Is this a MMM measurement or a single position measurement? If a single position then a MMM would be more acurate to what you hear and will look much better.

This is a one-point measurement.

 

[dualazmak]

I've come a long way from using a lot of DSP to using it very carefully. I think this plays anazing. The measurement is helpful, but the ears determine the final result.

Previously, measurements looked like this,(1/24) but it didn't sound anywhere near as entertaining. Weird sound.
I'm bad at English so I won't be writing much here.
View attachment 514556

Thank you for your sharing Fq-SPL curves, present (#205) and past weird sound (#208), in vertical 50 dB scale and the photos of your amazing SP setup especially your multiple subwoofers.

Even though I assume your multiple subwoofer setup and careful listening room (and furniture) design/placement would really nicely (or badly?) contribute to this "weird sound" Fq-SPL house curve, at least I myself feel a little bit unusual or curious about the straight-line slight decline from 40 Hz towards 170 Hz with almost no room mode (no furniture mode).

Just for my curiosity, what kind of, and how much of, DSP EQ tunings did you apply in this zone?
In case if you did apply considerable DSP EQs, what would be the theoretical total phase rotation (I mean total-phase along with Fq diagram), if any, in this zone?
(I assume such possible complex phase rotations might cause more-or-less "weird sound". )

 

[8x24 inch]

Thank you for your sharing Fq-SPL curves, present (#205) and past weird sound (#208), in vertical 50 dB scale and the photos of your amazing SP setup especially your multiple subwoofers.

Even though I assume your multiple subwoofer setup and careful listening room (and furniture) design/placement would really nicely (or badly?) contribute to this "weird sound" Fq-SPL house curve, at least I myself feel a little bit unusual or curious about the straight-line slight decline from 40 Hz towards 170 Hz with almost no room mode (no furniture mode).
View attachment 514573

Just for my curiosity, what kind of, and how much of, DSP EQ tunings did you apply in this zone?
In case if you did apply considerable DSP EQs, what would be the theoretical total phase rotation (I mean total-phase along with Fq diagram), if any, in this zone?
(I assume such possible complex phase rotations might cause more-or-less "weird sound". )

That measurement looks like this on phase and waterfall

 

[dualazmak]

Thank you indeed for your very quick response! I understand well.
In any way, this is my first time observing/seeing such kind of "straight-line declining" room Fq-SPL, in 50 dB scale, at your (our) listening position in non-anechoic room acoustics...

 

[8x24 inch]

Thank you indeed for your very quick response! I understand well.
In any way, this is my first time observing/seeing such kind of "straight-line declining" room Fq-SPL, in 50 dB scale, at your (our) listening position...

Same area but the measurement that has less dsp. Sounds much better

 

[dualazmak]

Thank you again!

I too experienced several times just like yours; as I wrote in my above post #206, our discussion here is another typical example case of "Too much FQ-SPL flattening and/or too much time-alignment tunings would sometimes result in rather strange (weird and/or just boring) total subjective sensation, like giving some techno-like, non-natural, artificial-nuance sound."

Yes, our ears and brain are not always identical to measurement microphone and objective data obtained thereby. Furthermore, our home listening room is always non-anechoic, and we well experience and remember actual live music performances/concerts in non-anechoic concert halls and/or venues...

Just for all of your reference;
- Short communication on my preference in room acoustics: #502 on my project thread.

 

[dualazmak]

Hello again @8x24 inch,

You are cordially invited to another my hosting thread entitled "Let's share diagrams (and photos) of our total physical audio system and the whole signal path, with a few words and/or links".

Your kind participation having your total system diagram, total signal path, several measurement diagrams, and photos of your wonderful audio system, would be of great reference and interests for many people onboard on that thread.

 

[dualazmak]

Hello @8x24 inch,

Thank you indeed for your quick participation (#426, #427) having system diagram and photos on my hosting thread entitled "Let's share diagrams (and photos) of our total physical audio system and the whole signal path, with a few words and/or links".
Your posts are/will-be attracting great interests and attentions of many people on board on that exciting thread.