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Lightbulb hits? 'Optimal' reconstruction filter likely depends on age?

Cahudson42

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Recently got a Qudelix 5k. First device lets me pick reconstruction filter. Not to rehash previous thousands of posts, I can't hear anything above 9k - 10k or so..why should I be worried about hf artifacts, hf roll off, of a slow filter? Why not just go with minimum phase slow rolloff, and 'enjoy' the lack of no pre-ringing? (Which I -'think' I can detect - maybe)

Qudelix drives HE400i balanced. PEQ to cut 7k peak, raise bass.

Mostly classical . Some vocal - Chesky's Amber Rubarth..

Your opinions, thoughts, alternate suggestions? Or 'thought corrections'?
 
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rkbates

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A topic I'm very interested in - unfortunately no shortage of conflicting and unsubstantiated info in various forums. My basic understanding of digital signal processing, plus the immutable fact that you can't get something for nothing, suggests a minimum phase approach would be best. http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/04/internet-blind-test-linear-vs-minimum.html is pretty good reading.
Keen to hear what the experts say.
 

RayDunzl

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Why not just go with minimum phase slow rolloff, and 'enjoy' the lack of no pre-ringing? (Which I -'think' I can detect - maybe)

Ok so "pre ringing" is a thing when looking at an Impulse Response..

Is there an example to show where it occurs within a music signal?
 

RayDunzl

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Ok, so I looked for you:

(now I see we both looked, sorry)

https://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/04/internet-blind-test-linear-vs-minimum.html

1602306844758.png
 
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solderdude

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I can't hear anything above 9k - 10k or so..why should I be worried about hf artifacts, hf roll off, of a slow filter? Why not just go with minimum phase slow rolloff, and 'enjoy' the lack of no pre-ringing? (Which I -'think' I can detect - maybe)

A question.

The 'pre-ringing' is at around 1/2fs so in case of 44.1khz (the worst offender) there will only be some pre-ringing between 18kHz and 24kHz.
That means there has to be some HF signals above 18kHz present (maybe even lower) that causes that ringing which, aside from already being low in amplitude thus also the ringing is even lower in amplitude, which you already cannot hear anyway.
You mentioned you 'think' you can detect maybe.
That ringing however is at the same (to you inaudible) frequency as post ringing.
It is unlikely this is the effect you are hearing.
Consider that due to the slow filter response you may be hearing IM components or audible roll-off in the audible band instead.

The video above uses sharp filters in the audible band which is not the same as above the audible band.
 
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Cahudson42

Cahudson42

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Consider that due to the slow filter response you may be hearing IM components or audible roll-off in the audible band instead.
Interesting. I'm reminded that several apparently well-reguarded DAC manufacturers (Matrix) default to minimum phase, fast rolloff.

@solderdude , may I ask what filter do you use/recommend for classical/female vocal? (Assuming 16/44.1 source)
 
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solderdude

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Fast roll-off won't be having much IM products and roll-off.

The filter doesn't depend on the type of music. I set my DAC's (when possible) to linear phase fast roll-off and forget it afterwards (When the DAC remembers the setting).
As long as it isn't slow roll-off I a happy with both linear, minimum phase or some hybrid.
 
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Cahudson42

Cahudson42

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So...what did I learn? (a check?)

That the ringing I was trying to avoid is inaudible to me (but raised the question 'what do I perceive' during the time any inaudible ringing might be 'playing' - 'blackness'? 'Instrument shift's' of some sort?)

and that slow filter can not only have aliasing artifacts and hf rolloff, but far worse IM artifacts as well.

Finally, linear or minimum phase fast rolloff are 'user preference' and neither is clearly superior to the other in all situations.

Thank you all!

Any thing else I should have learned, advise:)
 

AnalogSteph

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The only time I remember plainly hearing digital filter ringing was when using a resampler with a very steep filter (unmodified SSRC) and a source or destination sample rate that placed fs/2 well within my hearing range. Neither should be the case in playback of 44.1 kHz or higher material over typical DACs, so that's probably a red herring.

Two more interesting leads to follow up on:

1. Insufficiently suppressed alias components in the ultrasonic range would not only mess with a measurement system, but might also cause audible intermodulation distortion.

2. One thing that tends to change between fast and slow rolloff filters is periodic passband ripple. This is correlated with pre- and post-echoes, and the higher its frequency in the frequency domain, the further apart those are from the main impulse and the less likely they are to be masked audibly (same goes for amplitude). This is primarily an issue for linear phase (FIR) filters, as minimum-phase (IIR) filters do not produce pre-echoes. It is very likely inaudible either way if passband ripple is kept below +/-0.001 dB (perhaps even +/-0.003 dB already), and safely inaudible below +/- 0.0001 dB (= 102 dB down). You can find numerous DACs that are in the green or at least in the yellow in this regard; it's a much greater challenge for ADCs (a lot of the current AKMs will produce about +/-0.06 dB at 48 or 96 kHz).

If you insist, you can always study your DAC's DAC chip datasheet, pick out a setting that results in virtually nil periodic passband ripple, and upsample in software using a known-good resampler (like the SoX resampler plugin for Foobar2000, which even allows you to further reduce ringing by picking an even lower filter cutoff frequency - although the default 95% of fs/2 is plenty fine already - and continuously vary between FIR and IIR filtering). This would essentially eliminate both of the above.
 
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