KH310A vs 708P

[jumper]

I've been researching other threads till I'm blue in the face and before I make a decision I'd like to pose the question to the forum: KH130A or 708P?

This is for a large odd shaped room, I will designate a 16' x 17' space as my listening area but the room is 'T' shaped and about 2.5 times the size of the listening area. The width is the 16' and fixed at that measurement by side walls that have a vault to the ceiling starting about 5' up - so not friendly in terms of reflections. Fortunately the back of the listening area opens to the rest of the room so I can put the speakers and listening position as close to or as far from the front wall as I like. Listening position will have a small table as a desk with PC/video monitor. Speakers will be on stands and can be as close to or as far from the desk as necessary.

I currently have a Rythmik sub I will use at first and will entertain going dual subs as needed. Everyday listening will be at normal to moderate volume levels but as a musician I'd like to incorporate the system for backing tracks during rehearsal so quality at higher SPL will be appreciated. I'm considering SHD analog to the speakers, or perhaps SHD Studio if going 708P. $725 difference between KH310A and 708P. Thoughts?

 

[AnalogSteph]

Since you already have a sub and external DSP (btw, have you considered e.g. Sonarworks?), I might tend towards the slightly cheaper KH310s. Reasons being, no port issues and super low distortion midrange and treble. The JBLs may have a slight edge in directivity. Not sure about hiss levels - the smaller 705P apparently is a tad on the noisy side (28 dB(A) at 10 cm, while the KH310s are among the quietest monitors out there at 16.5 dB(A) and as such would be suitable for distances as low as 40 cm).

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

kh310A + your shd + your rythmik sub and you done

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I was/am in a similar position. As usual it depends .
If you are in the US the clear winner is the 708p. The measurements may lean toward the KH310 but the 708p is eminently customizable. More so that the non-DSP 310A. It also goes lower and can play louder. Some gurus here at ASR, have provided EQ settings, you can directly input in the speaker, that make its FR flat as a pancake from 50 Hz to 15 KHz. It cost less, play louder, accepts Digital and analog inputs. Can be part of a large and powerful JBL software and hardware ecosystem (Have a look at what the JBL Intonato-24, for example, brings in term of flexibility and customization).
If you are in Europe the Neuman will cost much less and the JBL a lot more, almost twice the price, plus depending on the locale , say UK, distribution and dealership seem to be lacking. You will still not have the JBL powerful built-in DSP with EQ , crossover and the ecosystem.

I would (will?) go 708p. I am currently enjoying and in awe at what his cheap cousin the LSR 308 are providing me. If the 708p, are so much better as I have heard from people here and elsewhere, I will have my (almost ) endgame system.

Peace

 

[RobL]

Not sure about hiss levels - the smaller 705P apparently is a tad on the noisy side (28 dB(A) at 10 cm, while the KH310s are among the quietest monitors out there at 16.5 dB(A) and as such would be suitable for distances as low as 40 cm).

FWIW, I have a pair of 705’s and I hear zero hiss unless i put my ear inside the waveguide.

 

[jumper]

Thanks folks, regarding pricing as I think it would help: I'm in the US so the JBL are much less here than the KH310A. I also haven't bought the miniDSP yet (I do own the Rythmik). The standard SHD for the KH310A is $350 more than the studio version that could be used with the 708P. The SHD studio would require an inexpensive DAC for the sub(s). Altogether the KH310A+standard SHD is about $1,000 more than the 708P+SHD studio+DAC for sub(s).

I'm ok with the higher price of the KH310 solution if they are better than the 708P. However I'd be thrilled to save $1,000 going JBL as I like what I've found researching those as well. These speakers are both well regarded so its tough to find a reason for me to pick one over the other.

 

[jumper]

Hi

I was/am in a similar position. As usual it depends .
If you are in the US the clear winner is the 708p. The measurements may lean toward the KH310 but the 708p is eminently customizable. More so that the non-DSP 310A. It also goes lower and can play louder. Some gurus here at ASR, have provided EQ settings, you can directly input in the speaker, that make its FR flat as a pancake from 50 Hz to 15 KHz. It cost less, play louder, accepts Digital and analog inputs. Can be part of a large and powerful JBL software and hardware ecosystem (Have a look at what the JBL Intonato-24, for example, brings in term of flexibility and customization).
If you are in Europe the Neuman will cost much less and the JBL a lot more, almost twice the price, plus depending on the locale , say UK, distribution and dealership seem to be lacking. You will still not have the JBL powerful built-in DSP with EQ , crossover and the ecosystem.

I would (will?) go 708p. I am currently enjoying and in awe at what his cheap cousin the LSR 308 are providing me. If the 708p, are so much better as I have heard from people here and elsewhere, I will have my (almost ) endgame system.

Peace

Thanks for the great input. I'm in the US so I agree costs do come into play. You bring up great points about DSP. If going with the 708P, given its internal DSP, what are your thoughts about going with something like a miniDSP SHD Studio on the front end and using its Dirac instead of the 708P's internal DSP? I've read commentary that Dirac provided the better result. This is a system that I'm starting from scratch (except the Rythmik sub) so I've yet to purchase the front end, be it a processor (SHD), standalone DAC (D90SE), or simple converter (USB to AES). Interested in how you would build out the rest of the system.

 

[FrantzM]

Thanks for the great input. I'm in the US so I agree costs do come into play. You bring up great points about DSP. If going with the 708P, given its internal DSP, what are your thoughts about going with something like a miniDSP SHD Studio on the front end and using its Dirac instead of the 708P's internal DSP? I've read commentary that Dirac provided the better result. This is a system that I'm starting from scratch (except the Rythmik sub) so I've yet to purchase the front end, be it a processor (SHD), standalone DAC (D90SE), or simple converter (USB to AES). Interested in how you would build out the rest of the system.

Hi

No personal experience with Dirac, seems to the real deal. I am however waiting for a thorough review from ASR...
I have seen the review of the miniDSP SHD and the performances are good, solid + it has Dirac. It is a DAC, ou won't need any accessories. You would just connect your Ethernet to it. It has Volumio. There are however some rumbles against Volumio as a streamer. Without any outside EQ, out of he box, the 708p is a superb performer. You can just leave it alone and use the DSP capabilities of the SHD + Dirac.
I would get another Rhythmik sub, a pair of 708p and call it a day... and you are in possession of a superlative system when it's all done, measured, tweaked.
From that point on , you just enjoy the galaxy-large volume of music available these days with all these streaming services.

That is likely my next move.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Do the JBLs offer high/low pass filters and time delay adjustments for optimal subwoofer integration? If not then an SHD or SHD Studio would have a clear performance advantage irrespective of Dirac Live.

 

[jumper]

Do the JBLs offer high/low pass filters and time delay adjustments for optimal subwoofer integration? If not then an SHD or SHD Studio would have a clear performance advantage irrespective of Dirac Live.

Per JBL 708P has Room EQ, User EQ, Room Delay, AV Sync Delay, 4 parametric filters, HF Shelf, LF Shelf . There is JBL's HiQnet but I'm not sure of what it offers. I'm assuming with the 708P DSP I would need to use REW for measurements and manually adjust the 708P DSP settings, versus the more automatic correction process of Dirac.

 

[richard12511]

Pro's I see for each with subs in place,

KH310:
+ Less driver/cabinet resonances
+ Lower harmonic distortion at 86 and 96dB, and lower IMD(due to being 3 way)
+ Slightly better vertical directivity

708p:
+ Clearly better horizontal directivity(due to really great waveguide and vertical orientation)
+ Can play louder(compression driver vs dome)

Honestly, I don't know what I'd pick. Usually 3 way is better, but the 708p does have noticeably better horizontal dispersion. It's most noticeable in the horizontal beamwidth graph(attached). Both are top of the line for the price, so I don't think there's a bad decision here.

 

[FrantzM]

Thanks for the great input. I'm in the US so I agree costs do come into play. You bring up great points about DSP. If going with the 708P, given its internal DSP, what are your thoughts about going with something like a miniDSP SHD Studio on the front end and using its Dirac instead of the 708P's internal DSP? I've read commentary that Dirac provided the better result. This is a system that I'm starting from scratch (except the Rythmik sub) so I've yet to purchase the front end, be it a processor (SHD), standalone DAC (D90SE), or simple converter (USB to AES). Interested in how you would build out the rest of the system.

Hi

No personal experience with Dirac. I am waiting for a through review from ASR...
I have seen the review of the miniDSP SHD and the perormance are good, solid + it has Dirac.
I would get another Rythmik sub, a pair of 708p and call it a day for a long while. The only downsife of the SHD is that it seems that Volumio is not that great as a streamer ... Introduce a PC endpoint capable of streaming and send the digital output to the SHD and you are in possession of a superlative system when it's all done , measured, tweaked.
From that point on , you just enjoy the galaxy large volume of music available these days with all these streaming services. Trying Qobuz, right now and its smooth integration with ROON.

 

[Ron Texas]

Do the JBLs offer high/low pass filters and time delay adjustments for optimal subwoofer integration? If not then an SHD or SHD Studio would have a clear performance advantage irrespective of Dirac Live.

I'm pretty sure the JBL's have a high pass filter. Check the jblpro site and read their user manual. I have my eye on a pair myself.

 

[dfuller]

I'm a fan of less IMD, generally, and the harmonic distortion is better as well on the KH310. The distortion does climb in the sub-bass region, so if you can justify a sub or 2 that's a good idea if you need lots of volume.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Per JBL 708P has Room EQ, User EQ, Room Delay, AV Sync Delay, 4 parametric filters, HF Shelf, LF Shelf . There is JBL's HiQnet but I'm not sure of what it offers. I'm assuming with the 708P DSP I would need to use REW for measurements and manually adjust the 708P DSP settings, versus the more automatic correction process of Dirac.

I'd see if you can download the manual to understand exactly what the capabilities are.

I use an SHD for subwoofer integration so I'll just make a couple of comments on this in case it helps. I don't know about what the JBLs can do so I'm just sharing info. rather than trying to push you down this path.

The range of crossover filter options include 48 dB/octave filters which is what I use and give a much more limited crossover region than is available more commonly. This makes it easier to optimise the crossover and also allows me to run a higher crossover frequency without subwoofer localisation issues (I use 110 Hz).

On the time delay front there are a few factors to consider in terms of what you may want. With the passive speakers in my sigature I needed to apply around a 10 ms delay to my main speakers to time align them with my corner-located subwoofer. I'm currently experimentng with a pair of Edifier S3000Pro active speakers which do use DSP and interestingly the delay introduced by this signal processing is sufficient to mean that, for the same geometry, the subwoofer signal actually arrives first. I'm therefore applying a delay to the sub with these, which I could actually have achieved with the sub itself.

How big a delay anyone might need will depend on room size and the speaker/sub/listening position layout. Optimal delays will also be influenced by room interaction rather than purely geometry. Up to a point, the maximum delays that can be applied may limit position options. The SHD can apply delays of up to 30 ms (which interestingly is actually less than the 80 ms the cheaper 2x4 HD can manage).

Finally I'll just add that subwoofer integration with the SHD is a manual process that you'll need to do yourself based on REW measurements. The version of Dirac Live used doesn't have any functionality to do this for you. Having sorting out the main/sub intetegration you then run Dirac on the combined system, so it 'hears' the main speakers + subs as if they were just two large/cabable speakers.

Would you be interested in using the SHD as a streamer at all? I can comment on this aspect too if you're interested.

Personally I'd be very interested to demo both of the speaker options you're considering in my own system . I think on-paper the Neuman's appeal more to me but aesthetically/practically their wide rather than tall driver alignment is a bit of a negative though.

 

[jumper]

I'd see if you can download the manual to understand exactly what the capabilities are.

I use an SHD for subwoofer integration so I'll just make a couple of comments on this in case it helps. I don't know about what the JBLs can do so I'm just sharing info. rather than trying to push you down this path.

The range of crossover filter options include 48 dB/octave filters which is what I use and give a much more limited crossover region than is available more commonly. This makes it easier to optimise the crossover and also allows me to run a higher crossover frequency without subwoofer localisation issues (I use 110 Hz).

On the time delay front there are a few factors to consider in terms of what you may want. With the passive speakers in my sigature I needed to apply around a 10 ms delay to my main speakers to time align them with my corner-located subwoofer. I'm currently experimentng with a pair of Edifier S3000Pro active speakers which do use DSP and interestingly the delay introduced by this signal processing is sufficient to mean that, for the same geometry, the subwoofer signal actually arrives first. I'm therefore applying a delay to the sub with these, which I could actually have achieved with the sub itself.

How big a delay anyone might need will depend on room size and the speaker/sub/listening position layout. Optimal delays will also be influenced by room interaction rather than purely geometry. Up to a point, the maximum delays that can be applied may limit position options. The SHD can apply delays of up to 30 ms (which interestingly is actually less than the 80 ms the cheaper 2x4 HD can manage).

Finally I'll just add that subwoofer integration with the SHD is a manual process that you'll need to do yourself based on REW measurements. The version of Dirac Live used doesn't have any functionality to do this for you. Having sorting out the main/sub intetegration you then run Dirac on the combined system, so it 'hears' the main speakers + subs as if they were just two large/cabable speakers.

Would you be interested in using the SHD as a streamer at all? I can comment on this aspect too if you're interested.

Personally I'd be very interested to demo both of the speaker options you're considering in my own system . I think on-paper the Neuman's appeal more to me but aesthetically/practically their wide rather than tall driver alignment is a bit of a

Much appreciated for this recap. I wasn't aware of the SHD's limitation with its Dirac Live version and sub integration, that's unfortunate as I've never used Dirac before and hoped it would be all inclusive.

I am interested in the SHD as a streamer - I've got a free ethernet jack in the perfect place that would allow a tidy installation. I've also got a PC at the listening position (and a laptop I can bring in) so I can stream to the SHD via USB instead if Volumio is a no go. I do enjoy Tidal more these days than I ever have before.

 

[Ultrasonic]

Much appreciated for this recap. I wasn't aware of the SHD's limitation with its Dirac Live version and sub integration, that's unfortunate as I've never used Dirac before and hoped it would be all inclusive.

I don't personally view this as a limitation as I actually prefer having full control over sub integration myself. I've also seen some suggest that doing it manually produces better results than Dirac Live Bass Management anyway. I mentioned it though as many, like you, expect Dirac to do more than it does.

I am interested in the SHD as a streamer - I've got a free ethernet jack in the perfect place that would allow a tidy installation. I've also got a PC at the listening position (and a laptop I can bring in) so I can stream to the SHD via USB instead if Volumio is a no go. I do enjoy Tidal more these days than I ever have before.

Having a spare ethernet connection solves one downside I was going to mention, which is over WiFi many find Volumio on the SHDs not the most responsive - me included. It works perfectly with a LAN connection though.

As you use Tidal I'll mention that the version of Volumio on the SHD doesn't currently support Tidal Connect. There has been no word from miniDSP to say whether this might be coming in the future or not. I have used Tidal on my SHD and it worked OK though, although now I use Qobuz instead (if it's available where you live). If the Qobuz music library was suitable for you then I'd recommend it for higher sound quality, most particularly as none of its content is compromised by the use of MQA. Qobuz is also cheaper, at least in Europe.

I have never used Volumio with any locally stored music files to comment on this, just to stream Tidal and Qobuz, and Radio Paradise. The user interface works but there is defintely room for improvement. If you have an Android phone then the Bubbleupnp app is an alternative that some like to use instead.

 

[jumper]

I don't personally view this as a limitation as I actually prefer having full control over sub integration myself. I've also seen some suggest that doing it manually produces better results than Dirac Live Bass Management anyway. I mentioned it though as many, like you, expect Dirac to do more than it does.



Having a spare ethernet connection solves one downside I was going to mention, which is over WiFi many find Volumio on the SHDs not the most responsive - me included. It works perfectly with a LAN connection though.

As you use Tidal I'll mention that the version of Volumio on the SHD doesn't currently support Tidal Connect. There has been no word from miniDSP to say whether this might be coming in the future or not. I have used Tidal on my SHD and it worked OK though, although now I use Qobuz instead (if it's available where you live). If the Qobuz music library was suitable for you then I'd recommend it for higher sound quality, most particularly as none of its content is compromised by the use of MQA. Qobuz is also cheaper, at least in Europe.

I have never used Volumio with any locally stored music files to comment on this, just to stream Tidal and Qobuz, and Radio Paradise. The user interface works but there is defintely room for improvement. If you have an Android phone then the Bubbleupnp app is an alternative that some like to use instead.

I'm in the US but I'm not opposed to switching to Qobuz, nothing really holding me back. I actually have 2 ethernet connections available right next to the system, one for PC and one for a streamer, so fortunate there.

Seems like I can take advantage of the price difference here in the US and go with the JBL over the Neumann. And therefor save another $350 going with the SHD Studio instead of the full SHD needed for the KH310A.

Can't say I'm crazy about the sub integration process with the SHD Studio but given its decent measurements its hard to believe the effort won't be worth it vs. just using a similarly priced DAC or converter (giving up the Dirac and DSP benefits).

 

[Ultrasonic]

Can't say I'm crazy about the sub integration process with the SHD Studio but given its decent measurements

Have you actually seen any measured performance data for the SHD Studio? I'm not entirely sure what you would meaningfully measure to be honest.

There is a review on this site for the SHD (not SHD Studio) but the measurements there are essentially for the DAC performance I'd have thought?

 

[jumper]

Have you actually seen any measured performance data for the SHD Studio? I'm not entirely sure what you would meaningfully measure to be honest.

There is a review on this site for the SHD (not SHD Studio) but the measurements there are essentially for the DAC performance I'd have thought?

You're very correct, no SHD Studio review - I've read the regular SHD review several times, I suppose it just gave me confidence in the Studio if nothing else. I suppose I could only care about jitter in a digital converter with SPIDF output, but I'm just a novice so not sure how important that really is.

So I'm leaning toward 708P and SHD Studio. Hope to hear some more feedback. I'd like to decide and place some orders next week