Is the Yamaha A-S 1200 integrated amplifier so mediocre in terms of instrumental measurements?

[MAB]

Right, but one test 100 years ago, to say, is not relevant for me. I want my test, with my chosen models

It's not one test.
And 100 years ago, please you are hysterical.
Our ears haven't evolved in a meaningful way, neither has our perception of sound.

I am trying to take you seriously. And provide some good advice to OP. You are distracting.

 

[Talisman]

well I beg to differ....i have tested numerous amp with looking at measurements and without...and there are times I can hear significant difference on the sound quality...you need an amp and speaker to listen...two interconnecting...you cannot just take one away from the other....it is also about synergy between the amp and speaker

I invite you to consider the possibility that there is a reality different from the one you have been indoctrinated by years of audiophilia. I absolutely understand your good faith in describing what you have heard, but try to make an act of faith (not towards the forum but towards your hearing) and perform a blind test according to the correct parameters. Then you will be able to draw any conclusions on your own. I invite you to consider that a blind test with matched level will be easily passed if you really hear the differences you have described.

 

[Gary_G]

You can follow the design from the 70's up into the 80's with that "line" at the bottom. It looks way way more harmoniously than their new attempt.

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That Ca-700looks very similar to a Luxman CL-1000

 

[Old_School_Brad]

That Ca-700looks very similar to a Luxman CL-1000 View attachment 434856

Aside from both being amplifiers with knobs and switches, I think they actually look quite different.

 

[Beave]

Not entirely false. There are measurements with amplification (slew rate and dampening factor are 2 examples) that for 99.9 % of people the differences are going to be inaudible. However, there are some people that can pick up on this, and depending upon the speakers, application and amplifiers, sometimes it’s just about anyone can pick up on a problem. John Meyer at Meyer Sound wrote about and lectured on this at AES.

The wine analogy is a good one to explain the ability to perceive something that 99% of the world cannot. The Master of Wine Examination (400 in World, less than 100 in US) is 36 wine exam, tasted blind. They spot you the color (I.e., they are not blindfolded). There are 36 glasses of wine, and they have to, based on taste/smell identify type of wine, country of origin, region of the country, method of production (what it’s aged in), how old it is (maturity), and its commercial appeal (how good it is). There are people in the world who can discern these things that are incapable of measurement. They can blend scotch, or port, or wine, to taste so that it is consistently the same year in year out,

Some people have perfect pitch, can quality of an instrument, or judge a performance.

I do agree, for 98% they are not going to be able to differentiate between amps unsighted. But there are some out there that are a little more sensitive to things like dampening factor, distortion, whatever.

I think it’s why Richard Heyser (who launched in Audio magazine the importance of measurements and objectivity with audio equipment, primarily speakers) , but was also quick to point out you still needed to listen and measurements would never replace that.

Damping factor, not dampening factor.

As for Richard Heyser, I've seen you refer to him and his quotes several times. Let's all thank him for his contributions to EE and audio,, and then let us all realize that audio testing (both electrical and acoustical) has advanced considerably since the time of his passing.

 

[ManniX]

@GiBo61
Why don't you buy an A-S700/701 and see if you like it?
I think it'll be very close to the A-S1200, as suggested by others in the thread.
It's cheap and you can easily resell it with a minimal loss.

That's if you really, really, want to go Yamaha.
I also had in mind the A-S1200 and then later thought about the R-N1000/2000.
The added YPAO and streaming functionalities would have been a real plus for me.
But before spending so much money for something with so average measurements, I bought an A-S700 2nd hand to see if me and my speakers were liking it.
I changed my mind.

Not much to say about the sound quality, seems really good to me.
It can drive my speakers really well as expected.
Thou I only listen to low volume levels.
Found out I don't like how it sounds with CD Direct/Pure Direct so I'm limited to below 90dB SINAD.
Not a real problem since I want to use the loudness control which is really good.

The problem is that this is not the old Yamaha, I don't think 20 years of service is anymore a thing.
I have repaired already twice the power supply board and found out that almost all Yamaha's amps have the same issue.
They knew it since years and kept producing faulty amps anyway, pretty astounding.
It's really something that doesn't inspire trust at all.
Not sure if the units they are selling today have been fixed, I wouldn't bet on it.

Indeed, it's easily repairable by service centers and also by yourself if you have the skills and the equipment.
But do you really want to take the risk to have to regularly disassemble everything and fix that monster?
I don't, the A-S700 is much smaller and it's already a pain.
IMHO, keep your gear and find an alternative for your next upgrade.

 

[Jimbob54]

Is it the forum policy to instigate people to call me hysterical ? Is it discrimination against non native English speakers like me ? Do you allow insults to be addressed to me because moderators can see my details that I am from a foreign country ? Is this an example of hate speech to me ? Thanks for clarifications

I think you've had enough on this thread. And you are behaving quite hysterically.

 

[GiBo61]

@GiBo61
Why don't you buy an A-S700/701 and see if you like it?
I think it'll be very close to the A-S1200, as suggested by others in the thread.
It's cheap and you can easily resell it with a minimal loss.

That's if you really, really, want to go Yamaha.
I also had in mind the A-S1200 and then later thought about the R-N1000/2000.
The added YPAO and streaming functionalities would have been a real plus for me.
But before spending so much money for something with so average measurements, I bought an A-S700 2nd hand to see if me and my speakers were liking it.
I changed my mind.

Not much to say about the sound quality, seems really good to me.
It can drive my speakers really well as expected.
Thou I only listen to low volume levels.
Found out I don't like how it sounds with CD Direct/Pure Direct so I'm limited to below 90dB SINAD.
Not a real problem since I want to use the loudness control which is really good.

The problem is that this is not the old Yamaha, I don't think 20 years of service is anymore a thing.
I have repaired already twice the power supply board and found out that almost all Yamaha's amps have the same issue.
They knew it since years and kept producing faulty amps anyway, pretty astounding.
It's really something that doesn't inspire trust at all.
Not sure if the units they are selling today have been fixed, I wouldn't bet on it.

Indeed, it's easily repairable by service centers and also by yourself if you have the skills and the equipment.
But do you really want to take the risk to have to regularly disassemble everything and fix that monster?
I don't, the A-S700 is much smaller and it's already a pain.
IMHO, keep your gear and find an alternative for your next upgrade.

I am confident that Yamaha’s high-end amplifiers, specifically the A-S1200 and A-S2200 models, do not offer superior technical measurements compared to my current Sabaj A30a—a fully digital Class-D amplifier. As a result, I do not expect any audible difference in sound reproduction quality to the human ear. My interest in purchasing an A-S1200 or A-S2200 stems purely from their aesthetic appeal and exceptional build quality (a product should gratify not just the ears, but also the eyes and touch).

For this reason, I have ruled out amplifiers like the Yamaha A-S700/701. While their sound performance would likely be indistinguishable from the higher-end models in the series, their perceived build quality and design fall short of the premium standard I seek.

 

[Old_School_Brad]

I am confident that Yamaha’s high-end amplifiers, specifically the A-S1200 and A-S2200 models, do not offer superior technical measurements compared to my current Sabaj A30a—a fully digital Class-D amplifier. As a result, I do not expect any audible difference in sound reproduction quality to the human ear. My interest in purchasing an A-S1200 or A-S2200 stems purely from their aesthetic appeal and exceptional build quality (a product should gratify not just the ears, but also the eyes and touch).

For this reason, I have ruled out amplifiers like the Yamaha A-S700/701. While their sound performance would likely be indistinguishable from the higher-end models in the series, their perceived build quality and design fall short of the premium standard I seek.

Well said. I feel the same way. I've owned both the A-S1000 and A-S700. The A-S1000 feels like a piece of heavy jewelry, while the A-S700 is more of a solid, no-frills amplifier -not in the same league. And while I’m aware of their measurements, this is purely about build quality and feel.
Shouldn't have let my A-S1000 go..

 

[Roland68]

I am confident that Yamaha’s high-end amplifiers, specifically the A-S1200 and A-S2200 models, do not offer superior technical measurements compared to my current Sabaj A30a—a fully digital Class-D amplifier. As a result, I do not expect any audible difference in sound reproduction quality to the human ear. My interest in purchasing an A-S1200 or A-S2200 stems purely from their aesthetic appeal and exceptional build quality (a product should gratify not just the ears, but also the eyes and touch).

For this reason, I have ruled out amplifiers like the Yamaha A-S700/701. While their sound performance would likely be indistinguishable from the higher-end models in the series, their perceived build quality and design fall short of the premium standard I seek.

In my opinion, a new A-S701 isn't worth it; a used A-S1000 would be cheaper and no comparison to the A-S701.

If you want to try out one of the larger Yamaha models, look for used A-S1000/2000/2100s. The difference to the A-S2200 is marginal, and since used parts retain their value quite well, you shouldn't make a big loss if you sell them. Or a 3000 as a bargain.

I wouldn't sell my A-S1000 either, even though I own two A30a. Maybe I'll trade it for a used 2 or 3 at some point.

 

[alexander75]

I invite you to consider the possibility that there is a reality different from the one you have been indoctrinated by years of audiophilia. I absolutely understand your good faith in describing what you have heard, but try to make an act of faith (not towards the forum but towards your hearing) and perform a blind test according to the correct parameters. Then you will be able to draw any conclusions on your own. I invite you to consider that a blind test with matched level will be easily passed if you really hear the differences you have described.

it is towards hearing and not about being indoctrinated. if I personally can hear a diff and personally I have done blind testing. if you can't differentiate and rely on measurement then go ahead, that's your preference. but to me, still i am not going to take measurements alone as to decide which equipment I shoud get or which system I should setup. again if you have inability to differentiate then stick to entry level setups, which is not wrong if you can differentiate. but if i can and i decide to splash significantly more, cos i can appreciate the class and finesse (which you probably can't ) then it's just about different preferences.

 

[alexander75]

Your attempt to use wines as analogous example is just false. The differences between the tastes of those wines can be easily proved in scientifically valid blind tests, whereas the differences in sound quality between two reasonably competently designed amplifiers can't. This has been proved several times. You can find the references in 'net.

Please familiarize Yourself with the concept of scientifically valid blind testing, and why it is needed to find out if the perceived differences in sound quality are real, or just results of our psychology.

dude if you can't sonically hear the diff, then don't blame other ppl for your inept to judge sonically

 

[JiiPee]

dude if you can't sonically hear the diff, then don't blame other ppl for your inept to judge sonically

It is not about me. It is about scientifically valid facts.

 

[Snoopy]

After watching something like this I could never settle for a Sabaj or topping etc

 

[alexander75]

It is not about me. It is about scientifically valid facts.

 

[alexander75]

like I said....to entirely dependant on science is a total bs and ignorance at the highest level....but I gues you can't buy taste, class and finesse...tjose are mainly to only look at science

 

[alexander75]

In my opinion, a new A-S701 isn't worth it; a used A-S1000 would be cheaper and no comparison to the A-S701.

If you want to try out one of the larger Yamaha models, look for used A-S1000/2000/2100s. The difference to the A-S2200 is marginal, and since used parts retain their value quite well, you shouldn't make a big loss if you sell them. Or a 3000 as a bargain.

I wouldn't sell my A-S1000 either, even though I own two A30a. Maybe I'll trade it for a used 2 or 3 at some point.

that's a nice one you have there...as1000

 

[Talisman]

again if you have inability to differentiate then stick to entry level setups, which is not wrong if you can differentiate.

I'll stick to my poor guy donkey-eared setups then.
Good luck with your golden ears

 

[JiiPee]

like I said....to entirely dependant on science is a total bs and ignorance at the highest level....but I gues you can't buy taste, class and finesse...tjose are mainly to only look at science

People with taste, class and finesse can keep their arguments facts based and civilized.

 

[alexander75]

I'll stick to my poor guy donkey-eared setups then.
Good luck with your golden ears

People with taste, class and finesse can keep their arguments facts based and civilized.

so you can only judge based on measurement...train your ears more