Is it worth upgrading my BT DAC, discussion of 'limiting' factors

[aerosnack]

Hello all,

I am looking at continuing to sort out my desktop speaker system I use while working at home. Currently it's a Fiio BTR3K (I use bluetooth from my iPhone in AAC, Apple Music lossless) sent our to a pair of near field Adam T5Vs.

I have snagged a t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini to sort out some room modes (width and depth both match, so it's peaky to say the least. In the plan is to add some absorbers, but that's for another day), and was looking at whether the BTR3K will be a weak link at this point.

The BTR3 when tested on here has a SINAD of 87dB, so definitely not in the 'good' zone - I assume similar performance from the BTR3k looking at a data sheets. I can also hear quite a lot of noise unless I turn the gain into the negative region on the T5Vs.

Given I don't want to break the bank, is there much to be gained by a better bluetooth receiver? Perhaps by increasing SINAD to 100dB or higher? Or am I unlikely to reap a benefit other than the background noise? Or would it be worth leveraging the slightly more powerful balanced output to try and increase SINAD?

If yes to being worth upgrading the receiver, is there a good device out there that costs 150GBP or below? (Preferably 100GBP or lower!) I have been looking so far at Topping and SMSL products,

Thanks in advance,

 

[aerosnack]

To clarify, the main two current units I'm looking at are:

SMSL C100, SINAD unknown but probably good, £100
SMSL D-6, SINAD 118dB, £160

 

[ZolaIII]

Do you have or intend to use sub/sub's? Do you own or intend to buy measurement microphone? Did you consider switching to network/WiFi streaming instead of BT?

Brake the bank and go for MiniDSP Flex if you can.

 

[aerosnack]

Hello!

Yes, I own and use a UMIK-1, which I’ll set up the DSP with, curious to use MMM with for the first time and get the listening position nailed in.

I am actually planning to get a flex unit at some point for the living room, but trying to keep the office a bit more ‘sensible’ in the mean time.

Subs are a possibility for the office, but to be honest the T5vs are surprisingly capable without (for the moment).

Steaming over Wi-Fi is definitely a possibility too, no problem with that.

 

[ZolaIII]

For office consider WiiM Mini but it doesn't support apple music (it does however support airplay 2.0).
DAC it has is about the same as one in the BTR3K but you can transmit lossless (needs configuring for AirPlay) or close to it with WiFi vs BT AAC so you can get some quality gains. It's cheap especially for what it offers and transparent over Toslink (if you later feed Flex or better DAC with it).

WiiM Mini Review (Streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the WiiM Mini Wifi/Bluetooth streamer. It is on kind loan from a member and is on sale on Amazon for US $89. As you can see the former factor is a "hockey puck." An included phone charger needs to be used to power the unit over USB-C. It did not...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Definitely consider a sub, those are small monitors after all.

 

[aerosnack]

Thanks Zolalll!

The Wii Mini looks like it could work, realistically wifi would be fine, and helpful with its higher bandwidth for sure.

With a bit of luck I'll be integrating a REL Q201E, its actually been in the family a couple of decades now - but soon to be recommissioned.

 

[aerosnack]

I have just found this post on the forum: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-minidsp-2x4-sound-quality.19210/#post-630235

16 bits (96 Db SINAD) is said to be the threshold of human hearing, but in a room with the usual amount of noise it doesn't have to be that good. One member here who used to be a recording engineer and wrote a book on crossovers @mitchco says 12 bits or 72 db for most listeners with possibly 13 bits 78 db for a few.

Therefore the 87dB SINAD seems to be 9dB in excess of performance 'for the few' of 78dB.

Am I (or we?) just chasing numbers not auditory performance then?

 

[ZolaIII]

Well not quite. For a power amplifier people did tests hire and tend to agree how 75 dB SINAD is fine and how they can't hear above that. But with great headphones it's about 19 biti or 100 dB SINAD. That's because headphones (drivers) have lot less distortion then speakers, faster impuls response, higher separation ond there is no room.
It's always good to have headroom as; you lose cuple dB on every analog interconnect (including and some digital one's like USB and HDMI but not optical), same is for use of the most DSP's.
WiiM Mini DAC is on a level of average phone (while giving proper 2 V unbalanced output of course).
Largest benefit of using it to BT (excluding great implemented LDAC) will be lossless transmission trough WiFi compared to losy codecs lose in high frequencies (among other masking and psycho-acoustic losses that you might or might not be able to hear). If you go with DLNA instead of airplay you can even go bit perfect (up to 192 KHz and 24 bits). This is not because you can hear above 20 KHz (more realistic 16~17) nor to have 20+ bits but to avoid intersampling artifacts (when implementation isn't great).

 

[aerosnack]

Hello Zolalll,

Thanks again for the background information, it really helps to tie together the tidbits I've seen online.

I had decided to make an experiment for myself, by AB'ing against higher quality DAC - the Apple Lightning at 99dB SINAD

When gain matched, there is a definite, subtle, improvement to the sound. Without getting into the words too much, the sound definitely sounds less 'wooden' and more intricate. Interestingly it is clearest on complex passages rather than clearer notes. Worth noting the change isn't remotely on the scale of speakers, room acoustics or EQ - but present none the less.

I'm not sure there would be much more to be gained for me for going much higher quality than the Apple, I feel I would really struggle to hear differences above this.

Perhaps the best (and cheapest!) solution would be to use this lightening connector for the meantime (since I'm tied to the desk anyway) and focus on the EQ, room acoustics and sub. Perhaps I'll revisit the DAC in the future once I have those big wins sorted.

 

[ZolaIII]

@aerosnack to hear the difference between 99 dB SINAD DAC and higher one you would need to listen; a) on amplifier with lot higher analog input sensibility (in dB, and again that's rarely more than 100 dB), b) on higher SPL with speakers (which is a bit insane) that would have very, very low distorsion (which I don't think exit eventually very, very good headphones could get you there), c) while having perfect pre adolescent hearing. On the other hand SINAD at 1 KHz isn't suitable, at least multitone (and it is used on ASR) if not full frequency swap should be used as overall indicator of SINAD. Sometimes when DAC isn't great regarding SINAD in low bass and speakers do have not insignificant THD there (adding to each other) playing rather very loud you theoretically could be able to hear difference. Then again not all distortion is subjectively unpleasant but that's too wide topic to even start it.
Best regards and enjoy listening to music not technicality.