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Is it the movie, my ears, or my setup?

greyhound

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Please No Spoilers - planning to watch the rest of the movie tonight

We watched the first half of Killers of the Flower Moon last night. The setup in the living room is a pair of Gelenec 8340As, with a 7360A sub, fed from the TV's optical out, sourced from an Apple TV. We don't watch many movies, but watch plenty of TV shows and the sound generally seems good. Music on the system is great - I've calibrated as best I can with GLM.

Anyway, KotFM sounded like absolute %$^&! I was really straining to hear the dialogue, and then occasionally there'd be a gunshot or scene with music where it was so loud we'd literally flinch and scramble for the remote.

Is the audio mix just terrible, or could I have a config issue that's somehow confined to movies? I remember struggling with the audio on Tenet so much I gave up and added subtitles, but from googling it seems loads of people struggled with the dialogue on that one.
 

amadeogt

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This is a common problem with movie mixes. It is why AVRs offer dynamic range compression features (such as Audyssey Dynamic Volume).
 

OldTimer

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I never want to watch movies on Apple TV because it can’t play DTS. It’s only Dolby which file size is much much smaller than DTS.
 

ZolaIII

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Well no wonders there they left the DR in the big theatre TXD mix range of 22, didn't bother to mix it for home systems at all (up to 20 DR). If you can boost mid chenel +3 and use night mode or similar compressor.
 
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greyhound

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thanks folks. It seems crazy that movies would be released like this for home viewing, but it looks like I need to look into some kind of dynamic compression. Another rabbit hole!
 

JeffS7444

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I ought to check whether my Marantz AVR offers some sort of dynamic compression feature, because while I like the notion that media is available with little apparent dynamic compression applied, it can be a pain to live with in a home environment.
 

audio2920

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Late to the party here, but I tried KotFM just on a soundbar in my living room, and the dynamics were generally not offensive to me. Personal preference I'm guessing, but I suppose there could be technical reasons too. Maybe Apple swapped the mix out? [Unlikely, but for certain sometimes the theatrical mix gets used in error, even if a 'nearfield' tv mix exists]

There were a few music cues I would have tamed a few dB, but the FX seemed OK to me relative to dial level. Overall I thought the dialog sound was pretty decent, certainly given the usual constraints and carnage of production dialog quality. I didn't have any intelligibility issues.

FWIW I normally try to get my own "TV feature" mixes down to about 16LRA (well, more like "13 to 19" depending on what feels right to me on the day for the particular movie)

I do wish we [mixers/productions] could submit a wide dynamic and low dynamic mix to the streaming platforms because doing one mix that keeps everyone happy is a thankless task*, particularly on action movies. It wouldn't seem complicated to me for the streamers to give you a low dynamic by default (done by the mixer rather than simple compressor smashed on it) and then you, the user, could manually select an alt audio stream if you want something more like the theatrical mix. Most people wouldn't care about the latter, so it's not like it would need to be a highly visible part of their UIs. Sadly, I'm aware this would require additional mix time, QC time and workflow complexity / asset management, so it'll never happen because no one cares enough to spend money on such an endeavour...

*One person wants it squashed to within an inch of it's life with the dialog heavily compressed too, and all the mx/fx sitting at least 10dB below the dx level, while another wants the dialog to be natural dynamic and the explosions & helicopters to rock and give their subwoofer a workout, being like +20dB rel dx. So all you can do is try to annoy as few people as possible :-/
 

krabapple

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The OP has a 2.1 system and is (I'm guessing) listening to a downmix of streamed multichannel soundtrack content. There is no center channel in such a setup. I find often that the result is a crapshoot, for streaming content on Prime, Netflix, etc. Too often downmixes sound like blended-in surround content is far too loud compared to dialogue

This happens with soundbars, too. Even with DR compensation applied.

A solution would be for studios/services to provide a dedicated, properly balanced stereo mix as a streaming option.
 

ZolaIII

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The OP has a 2.1 system and is (I'm guessing) listening to a downmix of streamed multichannel soundtrack content. There is no center channel in such a setup. I find often that the result is a crapshoot, for streaming content on Prime, Netflix, etc. Too often downmixes sound like blended-in surround content is far too loud compared to dialogue

This happens with soundbars, too. Even with DR compensation applied.
You can (if you can) compensate for it giving a central chenel a boost of 2~3 dB in downmix which pretty much resolves it.
 

voodooless

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Do you know for sure that the ATV is doing the downmixing? Plenty of new TVs can accept multichannel audio and will downmix themselves, results are usually horrible. So check the audio output settings of the ATV. You may also be able to enable dynamic range compression in some of the player software settings. Some even offer dialog enhancement.
 

krabapple

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You can (if you can) compensate for it giving a central chenel a boost of 2~3 dB in downmix which pretty much resolves it.

Yes, presuming one has control over that parameter. If an AVR is configured for 2 channel output, center level may not be an available option. Though 'dialog control' or something like it, might be.

For soundbars, I guess Center options depend on their driver configuration.

And as per ATV's post, yes, one has to see what audio settings are, both in the TV , and in the downstream hardware.

I feel like I've investigated every setting but still encounter the problem. I've even wondered if it's something fundamentally wrong at the stream provider end.
 
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ZolaIII

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@krabapple what to say? I am control freak and like to have control over the mixer and use JRiver which of course has that option.
 

krabapple

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The OP's setup appears pretty common and basic, and one of my AV setups is simply smart TV + soundbar , also very common and basic.

alas JRiver's level of downmix control is neither common nor basic ;)
 
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greyhound

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The OP has a 2.1 system and is (I'm guessing) listening to a downmix of streamed multichannel soundtrack content. There is no center channel in such a setup. I find often that the result is a crapshoot, for streaming content on Prime, Netflix, etc. Too often downmixes sound like blended-in surround content is far too loud compared to dialogue

This happens with soundbars, too. Even with DR compensation applied.

A solution would be for studios/services to provide a dedicated, properly balanced stereo mix as a streaming option.
Yes, this is my situation. I haven't gone 5.1 because the room is only 3m deep and so I can't set up rear channels (they'd need to be literally adjacent to the sofa, which seems far from optimal.
 

audio2920

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Makes sense. IMHO since there is an ITU standard the default stereo downmix should be made from a 5.1 (or 5.1 render from Atmos) as:

L = L + (Ls-3dB) + (C-3dB)
R = R + (Rs-3dB) + (C-3dB)

But as discussed, that's not always the case. I consider deviations from this to be "wrong" so I use this when checking my own Atmos or 5.1 mixes for stereo compatibility. But if done differently by the consumer deliberately, that's fine by me. It's more of a problem if it happens accidentally and the surrounds aren't attenuated enough.

A solution would be for studios/services to provide a dedicated, properly balanced stereo mix as a streaming option.
Couldn't agree more; it's certainly how it used to be done.

While none of this helps the OP, and going somewhat off-topic for a bit of brain dump, FWIW... I stopped doing so a while ago because what actually happens is they make a 'mezzanine' file from which everything else is derived. Which means they use our Atmos mix for everything. To prove it to myself, I did make some minor tweaks to some stereos I sent, and then used a stereo device on a few different streaming services (mostly web browser on a laptop through dante vsc) to compare and contrast what I got from the platforms with my masters. What I got in most cases was an exact downmix of my Atmos. So, that's good and bad. It means even if we send a stereo mix, they do almost certainly just throw it away. But it also means that if mixers monitor their Atmos mixes in stereo in the studio, with a default downmix, then what you get from the service in stereo is exactly that. Almost sample accurate, I would say. At least, it is in cases where the service knows the end device is stereo. And, if an AVR or TV is doing the downmix, it should really be using the same parameters since this is both an ITU thing and a Dolby default too.

I'd speculate that an exception seems to be Hulu, or possibly all of Disney+ which I think might use some kind of spatial processing on/from the Atmos to give a wider sounding stereo downmix than the ITU 5.1 downmix. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, since if anything, I'd imagine widening out the surround image in the stereo field will work in helping maintain perceptive loudnesses and preserving dialog. The downside is, it's a closed box (at least to me) and not something I can audition while mixing/mastering. Like I say, I should probably look into it more for this particular service.

What all this means for me is that I always make sure my Atmos mix works in stereo and 5.1 (sometimes 7.1, if there's time, but that's closer to Atmos). It's my belief that some mixers still end up spending time crafting a stereo version, and then complain when it doesn't sound so good on TV; sometimes even blaming it on some imaginary downstream processing applied by the streaming service / blu-ray author / broadcaster. Based on my limited tests so far, I think they just didn't understand that their stereo mix gets discarded and everything comes from the Atmos master. Or they simply want an excuse for missing the runway with their mix in the first place, which let's face it, given all the ridiculous pressures, schedules and working hours in the industry, is hardly surprising sometimes.

As a result, my Atmos mixes are now often compromised slightly to make the stereo work, since this is super important. Usually it's not a big deal, like, it might be moving some panning a bit so it doesn't lump up as much in stereo, as well as starting with strategies that minimise duplication of phase coherent sound in multiple speakers in surround. Unless as @krabapple says, we get to do different mixes for different formats, sadly I will have to stick with this strategy for the foreseeable future.

However, none of this really has tons of effect on total dynamic range, which I understood to be one of the primary complaints. This is such a personal (or circumstantial?) preference. The downmixing issue is more one of whether the way the music/fx are done means they get more push in stereo than is wanted, but we're only talking a few dB here and there, which while likely hurting dialog in places if the mix is quite dense already, IMHO isn't on it's own likely the direct cause of "I had to reach for my volume control".
 

krabapple

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I hypothesize that the 'dynamc range' issue is a just the perception that the stereo output gets louder overall when the surround channel content is significant (that content gets folded into the 2-channel). When the surrounds are quieter, the dialogue (center content) stands out normally in the 2-channel rendering.

Punping up the center ('Dialog Enhance') could 'fix' this, but then dialogue will be too loud when surround content in minimal. A smart, dynamic processing option could detect surround channel level and do things right during downmixing, but not sure this exists.
 

audio2920

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hypothesize that the 'dynamc range' issue is a just the perception that the stereo output gets louder overall when the surround channel content is significant
I'd broadly agree. Like you say, it's more perception than mathematics. I still think DR itself is broadly inherent in the mix rather than the downmix, but I do think the perception is otherwise, simply because our brains detangle things more when they're from more speakers. In other words, it's as simple as, we just need more separation from background music/fx for dialog intelligibility when it's all from the same speakers. And your suggestion of a dynamic downmix makes sense for that reason.

The downmix itself only introduces minor* SPL increases to some "pan positions" (maybe like, 1 or 1.5dB compared to the surround environment) and let's not forget the phantom center itself is likely elevated by acoustic summing exceeding the 3dB needed to counteract the downmix.

*I say 1dB is minor, obviously in mixing terms there are plenty of times I'll lift a line by 1dB or less, but generally that's more for matching than intelligibility. And if the dx and mx/fx are so hard up against each other that 1dB makes the difference between dx being audible or not, I think the mix is probably not fit for public consumption because you can't assume that kind of accuracy in the real world.
 
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