I cannot trust the Harman speaker preference score

[Absolute]

And they come from JBL Pro division, not JBL consumer, so they were designed for control room applications where loud is normal and dead air is to be avoided. They were used in the Harman "reference" multichannel room for a few years.

It's beautiful to see you active and engaging! I hope you're doing well and enjoying your retirement.

About JBL Pro division, what are your feelings about the current state of affairs in that department? Looking at the measurements of late from JBL I'm really starting to wonder if they forgot the science that made them shine?

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

 

[Floyd Toole]

It's beautiful to see you active and engaging! I hope you're doing well and enjoying your retirement.

About JBL Pro division, what are your feelings about the current state of affairs in that department? Looking at the measurements of late from JBL I'm really starting to wonder if they forgot the science that made them shine?

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

www.spinorama.org

I have been retired for 16 years, so, as you can imagine, things at Harman have changed a lot. I no longer keep track of routine products. Professional products have always had more compromises than consumer products because of their emphasis on sensitivity, power handling, directional control (for delivery to large audiences), reliability and the like.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Some bookshelf speakers get midrange distortion from the bass freqencies hitting the single midrange driver at high volumes, even with with an 80 Hz crossover. Depends on if your speakers exhibit this, or if you even notice. Mine did, and I noticed, and I hated it. I don't know how high of a crossover it would have taken to mitigate this with the Focal Aria 906's I had, but I didn't like how higher crossover points sounded anyway, so I fixed the issue by moving to towers. The perceived sound quality difference was huge to me, but if you don't listen at loud volumes, and/or your particular bookshelf speakers do not distort at the volumes you listen to with your setup, then it's likely of far less importance. Disclaimer: All of the above is just my personal opinion, experince, and preference.

Howdy, to clarify you High Passed the Focal monitors, not just blending the sub in? And if indeed so what crossover slope?
Generally I have found that a solid, well engineered 6.5" 2 way or 3way can be crossed around 70-90hrz LR4 depending on specific model and still be able to play as loud as just about anything with no hint of distortions. It might take a touch more amp power, as the monitor sized speaker may be less sensitive vs towers.

I am not trying to get you to like monitors by the way, just curious. I have cranked some 6.5" 2ways pretty hard without issues.
I actually wondering if you had an amp or AVR that was running out of gas, or Dirac or PEQ or something that was a boosted area was trouble. (both for speaker and amp)
Of course maybe you just have a big room and rock hard and those Focals were giving up.

I don't mind higher x-over points so sometimes I do 100hrz or even 125hrz. It does take some effort to get things right but honestly not much more than lower frequencies. Just a lot of measuring and adjusting and more than 1 sub.

 

[ZolaIII]

@ROOSKIE some people underestimate importance of having difuzers on the wall behind and admitting bad acoustic space they put speakers in. End result is increased distortion in mids and lows.
If you sealed port on such cabinet distortion will naturally go up significantly and loudness up for some 2~3 dB with same power while they will fall down earlier and slope down sharper so you cross them higher and high pass is must in such case.
For example I have QA Q3030i speakers that are 6.5" two way large bookshelf's that are back ported. They need to be pulled out 60 cm or more. Those have slightly suppressed midrange (convently in this case around 1 KHz) and boosted bass (about 2 dB) around 100 Hz and really benefit from difuzers in the back. They sound the best sield and crossed at 90 Hz with high passes filter. However as implementing high pass filter can be a inconvenient to say at least (with integrated amps and nead to use additional crossover hardware for such) I cross them at 70 Hz, with port open and use bass/treble control's set to - 2 dB. They can play pretty loud like that without distorting much solving both mentioned, neadles to say its much more convenient to sealed port and high pass filter approach.
Key point is individual approach to used driver's and enclosure while respecting physics and most importantly using your head (hard part) to make their disadvantages work in your favour.

 

[Philbo King]

As has been pointed out several times, the first requirement for subjectively judged "neutral" timbre in double-blind listening tests is a flattish direct sound - i.e a flattish anechoic on-axis/listening window response. You are measuring the steady-state combination of direct and all reflected sound - a different thing. Depending on the listening distance, the dispersion characteristics of the loudspeaker and the acoustical environment this will take on a measure of downward tilt; more as the distance increases. The "Harman" (with an "a") curve you mention is what results from highly rated, well-designed forward-firing loudspeakers in typical listening rooms. It is not a target curve, and certainly not one to be applied in some of the aberrant control-room acoustics in existence. Check out the thread "what is your favorite house curve" for a fairly chewy discussion on this topic.

Thank you for chiming in and providong your expertise. I was concerned re: my post that I had confused the 'Harmon Curve' with the Harmon Speaker preference rating (it appears that this was indeed the case).

The anechoic response of my monitors (JBL 308 MkII) is quite flat already. Distance variation is not a factor since my listening position is always at the same position, the apex of a 6 foot equilateral triangle. The reason I use a measurement mic at the 'sweet spot' is primarily to generate an EQ IR to counteract bass reinforcement due to speaker-to-front wall proximity. The room acoustic treatment does a great job with other issues; the T(opt) is around 250 mS, and the combination of my IR EQ and room treatments provides a measured response flat +/- 2 dB at listening position.

But, as you mention, it was never intended for recording control rooms, and intended for listening rooms, so perhaps all this data is moot anyway.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Thank you for chiming in and providong your expertise. I was concerned re: my post that I had confused the 'Harmon Curve' with the Harmon Speaker preference rating (it appears that this was indeed the case).

The anechoic response of my monitors (JBL 308 MkII) is quite flat already. Distance variation is not a factor since my listening position is always at the same position, the apex of a 6 foot equilateral triangle. The reason I use a measurement mic at the 'sweet spot' is primarily to generate an EQ IR to counteract bass reinforcement due to speaker-to-front wall proximity. The room acoustic treatment does a great job with other issues; the T(opt) is around 250 mS, and the combination of my IR EQ and room treatments provides a measured response flat +/- 2 dB at listening position.

But, as you mention, it was never intended for recording control rooms, and intended for listening rooms, so perhaps all this data is moot anyway.

Howdy, the in typical room downward tilt Mr. Tool is referring to, is a function of many things including the distance you are from the speakers.
A speaker that starts out measuring 'flatish' in the direct soundfield in an anechoic chamber, will develop a different measurement character in a room.

You are not in an anechoic chamber, rather a more typical room and sit 6 feet away from your speakers (mid-field IMO)so that measured tilt will likely be different vs. if you were 15 feet away(far) and different vs if you were 3feet away(near). The further you get generally the more tilt there is as function of distance and all the afformentioned variables in Mr. Tool's post.

If you are in a typical domestic room and equalize for a flat in room steady state/in situation response and then create content, you can see how it will sound tipped down or otherwise different on any playback system not equalized for flat in room response right?
I realize you have made situational adjustments and treated the room so all bets are off on what is what. If that has yielded a +/-2db in room above the bass then so be it, just realize that if you PEQ,EQ or room 'correct' it flat, your mixes will have a baked in EQ that likely will not translate well to other systems.(or at least not the way you intended)
That is where the circle of confusion begins (well it is circle so it can begin anywhere but the recording studio is not a good place to start it)

That said, just be aware that in a typical, real, domestic room the response of highly rated consumer speakers ends up having some sort of downward tilt with the most energy in the bass and the least in the treble.

And as the man himself said it is not a room curve.

If you can, check out Mr. Toole's book. It explains quite a few things very well that I think would help anyone with a home studio and a hifi rig.

 

[anotherhobby]

Howdy, to clarify you High Passed the Focal monitors, not just blending the sub in? And if indeed so what crossover slope?
Generally I have found that a solid, well engineered 6.5" 2 way or 3way can be crossed around 70-90hrz LR4 depending on specific model and still be able to play as loud as just about anything with no hint of distortions. It might take a touch more amp power, as the monitor sized speaker may be less sensitive vs towers.

I am not trying to get you to like monitors by the way, just curious. I have cranked some 6.5" 2ways pretty hard without issues.
I actually wondering if you had an amp or AVR that was running out of gas, or Dirac or PEQ or something that was a boosted area was trouble. (both for speaker and amp)
Of course maybe you just have a big room and rock hard and those Focals were giving up.

I don't mind higher x-over points so sometimes I do 100hrz or even 125hrz. It does take some effort to get things right but honestly not much more than lower frequencies. Just a lot of measuring and adjusting and more than 1 sub.

No need to try and get me to like monitors. I absolutely love the Revel M105's that I listen to every day for hours on end in my office (also with subs). I also loved those Focal Aria 906's that I had. They are fantastic speakers, I just didn't like that I was volume limited (lower than I wanted) by audible distortion from bass.

 

[Newman]

Thank you [Dr Toole] for chiming in and providong your expertise. I was concerned re: my post that I had confused the 'Harmon Curve' with the Harmon Speaker preference rating (it appears that this was indeed the case).

Dr Toole also corrected your spelling of Harman (with an ‘a’)…to no avail.