I can hear my PC think through my speakers

[Multicore]

Is a possible ground loop worth considering? Does the E30's power supply really isolate? I know this kind of "thought" noise isn't typical of ground loops. Try a USB-powered dongle like the NEOHIPO Amir tested today. Cheaper than a USB isolator. Or try running the E30 on a battery for a test.

 

[effj]

Every time I say that the sane and respectful thing to do by the manufacturer's side is to include isolation to the DACs and interfaces I get a strong opposition that
"balanced don't care" or "SOTA DACs reject noise" or the best of all "it will be eXpEnSiVe"

Yet.here we go again with the thread of the week about the exact same problem a gazillion others have.
Don't you think we have to push at that direction instead of the absolutely inaudible couple of dBs over the 120 mark?

After experiencing noise too many times in the pursuit of sanity, I have a more radical viewpoint. Unless USB isolation solves a bigger or different problem (in the final result) than balanced connections solve, I think time is better spent advocating for the transition to balanced connections, particularly in “hifi” audio equipment. They are so much more ubiquitous in professional audio for a reason. I know that lots of devices have only single-ended analog connections, but, empirically, that long standing practice seems flawed to me.

 

[DEF]

After experiencing noise too many times in the pursuit of sanity, I have a more radical viewpoint. Unless USB isolation solves a bigger or different problem (in the final result) than balanced connections solve, I think time is better spent advocating for the transition to balanced connections, particularly in “hifi” audio equipment. They are so much more ubiquitous in professional audio for a reason. I know that lots of devices have only single-ended analog connections, but, empirically, that long standing practice seems flawed to me.

But Balanced means XLR - which I currently use for my speakers on my RME ADI 2 DAC FS
So I would need a separate device thats not using a 3/4 Jack. And from now on, I need to connect two cables for a headphone.
How could I solve this without spending another grand?

I was actually wanting to use my Phones Jack (3/4) jack

 

[effj]

But Balanced means XLR - which I currently use for my speakers on my RME ADI 2 DAC FS
So I would need a separate device thats not using a 3/4 Jack. And from now on, I need to connect two cables for a headphone.
How could I solve this without spending another grand?

I was actually wanting to use my Phones Jack (3/4) jack

Yes, it doesn’t solve the problem for someone who already owns equipment. Sokel was saying the problem should be solved by manufacturers, i.e. before you have bought the equipment, i.e. for new purchases. What I’m saying is manufacturers should stop selling equipment that only has single-ended connections.

 

[Rainier939]

The $10 ones you see don't do 480 Mbit/s,others are current limited,etc.
So a strong selling point (DXD up to 768kHz,DSD512,etc) is off if they use one of those.

It needs a decent one to cover all bases.

I would choose a silent dac with lower bit rates over noise high bit rate dac. But I never had the gear to hear any difference over 44.1/16

 

[effj]

After experiencing noise too many times in the pursuit of sanity, I have a more radical viewpoint. Unless USB isolation solves a bigger or different problem (in the final result) than balanced connections solve, I think time is better spent advocating for the transition to balanced connections, particularly in “hifi” audio equipment. They are so much more ubiquitous in professional audio for a reason. I know that lots of devices have only single-ended analog connections, but, empirically, that long standing practice seems flawed to me.

So, yeah, “balanced don’t care” is probably an easier way to summarize. Balanced connections solve a larger set of problems, right? PCs and USB connections are not the only source of noise. Why not address the problem more holistically rather than through isolation of single pieces of equipment?

 

[DEF]

Yes, it doesn’t solve the problem for someone who already owns equipment. Sokel was saying the problem should be solved by manufacturers, i.e. before you have bought the equipment, i.e. for new purchases. What I’m saying is manufacturers should stop selling equipment that only has single-ended connections.

If I want now to buy new I don't find front sided headphone amps / dacs
Those XLR always appear to be in the back. Why?

 

[Sokel]

So, yeah, “balanced don’t care” is probably an easier way to summarize. Balanced connections solve a larger set of problems, right? PCs and USB connections are not the only source of noise. Why not address the problem more holistically rather than through isolation of single pieces of equipment?

What you see at my measurement above is NOT balanced,in fact is a dirt cheap Khadas TB.
And I consider that pure luck as no isolator is amongst my gear.

The majority of the threads asking the SAME DAMN QUESTION are balanced DACs/interfaces,mixers/etc. ,straight to active speakers ,all the way balanced.
Balanced can be the solution to long runs and other problems,not this one which is at least one thread per week.

 

[Berwhale]

This is what I meant with my previous reply. How is this not a solved issue with dac manufacturers. If usb isolators cost not even $10 on amazon why isn't it in at least a entry level dac.
People are hooking up dacs to pcs and pcs are noisy machines. We use external dacs to get better performance then the basic dac on the motherboard and yet we have the same noise coming into the dac over usb. what ever lane is carrying that noise it should not get into the dac and cause so many problems.

The electrical noise from the PC does not affect the DAC itself (i.e. it does not affect the digital signal or the operation of the DAC), the DAC becomes a conduit for analogue electrical noise, produced by the PC, to travel to your speakers where it gets converted to audible noise.

I used to run an Topping D50s DAC (with unbalanced output) and Tannoy Reveal 402 monitors from my PC. This setup worked perfectly for over a year. I then swapped out the Tannoys for iLoud MTMs and got terrible issues with PC noise. The difference between the Tannoys and the MTMs is that the Tannoys have 2 pin power (i.e no safety ground) and the MTM have 3 pin power (with a safety ground). So the addition of safety ground on the MTMs completed the path to ground from the PC, via USB ground, though the D50s and the unbalanced cables to the monitors and resulted in a very audible issue. I think it would be pretty hard to argue that the audible noise was the DACs fault, when it's really a consequence of the whole system (PC, cables, DAC, cables and monitors, monitor power supply).

I resolved the noise issue in various ways - Using an ADUM3160 USB isolator, adding an SPDIF/TOSLINK adapter bracket to my PC and using an optical connection and eventually upgrading my DAC to one with balanced outputs (Topping EX5).

The balanced outputs resolve the noise issue because the signal ground is isolated from the safety/chassis ground. So there is no way for the PC noise traveling down the USB ground to affect the audio signal being transmitted over the balanced connection between the EX5 and MTMs.

 

[DEF]

The electrical noise from the PC does not affect the DAC itself (i.e. it does not affect the digital signal or the operation of the DAC), the DAC becomes a conduit for analogue electrical noise, produced by the PC, to travel to your speakers where it gets converted to audible noise.

I used to run an Topping D50s DAC (with unbalanced output) and Tannoy Reveal 402 monitors from my PC. This setup worked perfectly for over a year. I then swapped out the Tannoys for iLoud MTMs and got terrible issues with PC noise. The difference between the Tannoys and the MTMs is that the Tannoys have 2 pin power (i.e no safety ground) and the MTM have 3 pin power (with a safety ground). So the addition of safety ground on the MTMs completed the path to ground from the PC, via USB ground, though the D50s and the unbalanced cables to the monitors and resulted in a very audible issue. I think it would be pretty hard to argue that the audible noise was the DACs fault, when it's really a consequence of the whole system (PC, cables, DAC, cables and monitors, monitor power supply).

I resolved the noise issue in various ways - Using an ADUM3160 USB isolator, adding an SPDIF/TOSLINK adapter bracket to my PC and using an optical connection and eventually upgrading my DAC to one with balanced outputs (Topping EX5).

The balanced outputs resolve the noise issue because the signal ground is isolated from the safety/chassis ground. So there is no way for the PC noise traveling down the USB ground to affect the audio signal being transmitted over the balanced connection between the EX5 and MTMs.

Where do you buy inexpensively something that provides those ports? Do I get a second RME ADI 2 DAC FS?

 

[Berwhale]

Where do you buy inexpensively something that provides those ports? Do I get a second RME ADI 2 DAC FS?

Do you mean the SPDIF/TosLink ports on a PC?

I bought this one... https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08FTDMJKF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You'll want to refer to your motherboard manual to find the location of the SPDIF header and the pin allocation so you can connect the bracket correctly.

I don't understand why you would need a 2nd RME.

 

[DEF]

Do you mean the SPDIF/TosLink ports on a PC?

I bought this one... https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08FTDMJKF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You'll want to refer to your motherboard manual to find the location of the SPDIF header and the pin allocation so you can connect the bracket correctly.

I don't understand why you would need a 2nd RME.

Noo.
The guys here say we should all have balanced connection.
But 3/4 jack for headphone is unbalanced.
I already use XLR Balanced.

Means I would need a new device with XLR.
But they appear to have them always on the back. Bad choice for headphones.
Some do have them in front, but they are a bit harder to grab....

 

[Roland68]

But Balanced means XLR - which I currently use for my speakers on my RME ADI 2 DAC FS
So I would need a separate device thats not using a 3/4 Jack. And from now on, I need to connect two cables for a headphone.
How could I solve this without spending another grand?

I was actually wanting to use my Phones Jack (3/4) jack

I don't understand what exactly you want to connect to where and what the problem is.

XLR is a standardized multi-pin connector (3, 4, 5, 7, 10, etc.), is used for signals, power supply, DMX, etc. and has nothing to do with whether a connection is symmetrical or not.
3-pin XLR connectors can be symmetrical, but they don't have to be.
There are also 2.5mm, 3.5mm, 4.4mm and 6.35mm jack plugs for symmetrical cabling in 3-pin, 4-pin and 5-pin. But there are also other plugs that are used for this.

 

[Berwhale]

Noo.
The guys here say we should all have balanced connection.
But 3/4 jack for headphone is unbalanced.
I already use XLR Balanced.

Means I would need a new device with XLR.
But they appear to have them always on the back. Bad choice for headphones.
Some do have them in front, but they are a bit harder to grab....

Don't confuse 'line' outputs with headphone outputs, they are completely separate. XLR is just a type of connector, it is usually used for balanced connections, but it's not a 'balanced connector'.

Balanced 'line' outputs will often use two 3 pin XLR connections to provide a balanced stereo connection. For headphones, it more usual to see a 4 pin XLR connection used for 'balanced' connections, but you will also see 2.5mm TRRS, 4.4mm Pentaconn and sometimes 2x 3 pin XLR.

Here's a good article explaining the differences between balanced and unblanced (AKA single ended) and 'line' and headphone connections... https://www.soundguys.com/balanced-vs-unbalanced-connections-60085/

My Topping EX5 has a 'balanced' 4 pin XLR headphone connection on the front. However, its wired the same as the 1/4" jack and does not provide a differential signal to the headphones. The 'balanced' connection is just there for convenience for those that have headphones with 4 pin XLR plugs on them. I built a 4 pin XLR to 2.5mm TRRS adapter so I could use the XLR socket for my IEMs...

Project: Balanced 2.5mm to 4 Pin XLR Adapter

The days are getting shorter and the nights are closing in, so it's project time... I want to plug my IEMs into my EX5. I have Moondrop Starfields with a 2.5mm balanced cable from Linsoul - the Starfields are usually connected to my Earstudio ES100. I'd like to use the 4 pole XLR connection...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[DEF]

Don't confuse 'line' outputs with headphone outputs, they are completely separate. XLR is just a type of connector, it is usually used for balanced connections, but it's not a 'balanced connector'.

Balanced 'line' outputs will often use two 3 pin XLR connections to provide a balanced stereo connection. For headphones, it more usual to see a 4 pin XLR connection used for 'balanced' connections, but you will also see 2.5mm TRRS, 4.4mm Pentaconn and sometimes 2x 3 pin XLR.

Here's a good article explaining the differences between balanced and unblanced (AKA single ended) and 'line' and headphone connections... https://www.soundguys.com/balanced-vs-unbalanced-connections-60085/

My Topping EX5 has a 'balanced' 4 pin XLR headphone connection on the front. However, its wired the same as the 1/4" jack and does not provide a differential signal to the headphones. The 'balanced' connection is just there for convenience for those that have headphones with 4 pin XLR plugs on them. I built a 4 pin XLR to 2.5mm TRRS adapter so I could use the XLR socket for my IEMs...

Project: Balanced 2.5mm to 4 Pin XLR Adapter

The days are getting shorter and the nights are closing in, so it's project time... I want to plug my IEMs into my EX5. I have Moondrop Starfields with a 2.5mm balanced cable from Linsoul - the Starfields are usually connected to my Earstudio ES100. I'd like to use the 4 pole XLR connection...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Sad. Maybe sometime else. Thanks for the lesson.
Maybe I should use the reviews function of the forum. Perhaps I can filter by balanced headphone amp / dac.

 

[DLS79]

I just want my pc to stop blasting it's coil whine into my speakers.

Coil wine is not what's causing you to hear noise in your speakers. Coil whine is a mechanical issue, that's usually the result of a poorly designed or poorly constructed component. When high power (relatively speaking) flows through a coil (Inductor), that generates a magnetic field. In the right scenario the inductor itself will vibrate, or the inductor and adjacent components will vibrate. Again in the right scenario that will become an audible noise.

People are hooking up dacs to pcs and pcs are noisy machines.

Pcs are not inherently noisy, poorly designed, specked, or constructed ones can be.


Questions you should be asking / think about are:

1. Is my local power grid crappy (we have no idea where you live)
2. Is the wall socket your pc is plugged into grounded. (depending on how old it is and where you live it might not be)
3. Does your pc's psu have a ground prong
4. Is the psu's ground prong making good contact with the receptacle in the outlet
5. Does the psu have emi filtering, and how good is it
6. Does the motherboard have emi filtering, and how good is it
7. Is the usb cable being used well insulated
8. is the usb cable being used well routed, or is it intertwined with all kinds of other cables, and thus being subjected to emi

 

[Roland68]

Sad. Maybe sometime else. Thanks for the lesson.
Maybe I should use the reviews function of the forum. Perhaps I can filter by balanced headphone amp / dac.

???

What's sad?
You wrote that you own an RME ADI 2 DAC FS. That means you have one of the best balanced DACs and headphone amplifiers available.
Why would you want to look for something else?

 

[somebodyelse]

What you see at my measurement above is NOT balanced,in fact is a dirt cheap Khadas TB.
And I consider that pure luck as no isolator is amongst my gear.

The majority of the threads asking the SAME DAMN QUESTION are balanced DACs/interfaces,mixers/etc. ,straight to active speakers ,all the way balanced.
Balanced can be the solution to long runs and other problems,not this one which is at least one thread per week.

The majority that I've seen asking the question involve single ended, not balanced. For the minority that are balanced it suggests at least one of their components has a ''pin 1 problem' rendering them vulnerable to ground related noise issues. That's either a design issue like not following AES48, or a fault that has developed since manufacture. With luck both may be fixable. Jensen Transformers' AN007 has a procedure for finding the offending component(s), and a detailed explanation of ground issues in general.

Until recently USB isolators capable of USB 2.0 speeds were expensive so not viable to include in budget DACs. TI and AD's faster isolator chips are changing that, so there's certainly an argument that manufacturers could start including them in DACs and using it as a selling point as they do with other features and chips. It's a bit like the argument that everyone should just use balanced interconnects and follow AES48 to avoid the ground related noise vulnerability though; that would probably have less impact on the BOM than the isolator, and it's gone nowhere in domestic audio because single ended works well enough most of the time.

 

[yewneek]

Hello,

I've been looking through the forums but nothing hit this topic the way I was hoping so I'll ask more directly.

I can hear my PC think through speaker. I have my Topping E30 hooked up to my PC and the pc noise comes through.

When streaming from the wiim mini there is no knoise to be heard.

Any help is welcome.

Somewhere there will be a shared ground rail. You have to break that connection. Get a DMM and put it on continuity, then test, iterate, isolate and remove.

 

[DEF]

Somewhere there will be a shared ground rail. You have to break that connection. Get a DMM and put it on continuity, then test, iterate, isolate and remove.

Nope. That would be against the five electricity safety rules (translated from German)

1. Disconnect from the power source.
2. Ensure protection against re-energizing.
3. Verify absence of voltage.
4. Ground and short-circuit.
5. Cover and barricade nearby live parts.

Or...

1. Turn off the power and ensure the system is not energized.
2. Use a DMM (Digital Multimeter) to check for continuity, starting with known ground connections.
3. Document the ground layout before making changes, and avoid breaking ground connections unless you’re sure it’s safe.
4. If isolating circuits, ensure that you’re doing so in a way that maintains proper grounding for both safety and proper functioning of the components.

No way I am going to lift Ground. Even if my speakers have a lift ground switch - this is just not safe.
Theres a ground for a reason.