I can hear my PC think through my speakers

[Berwhale]

Did that in the past - but now just minus the SMSL.
Using the SMSL as a DAC and the RME as a Amp. Of course!
Have a look:

View attachment 394986

No, you are using the SMSL as a digital to digital bridge. The RME is performing DAC duties. Do you actually have an audible issue when you plug the RME straight into the PC via USB?

 

[phofman]

IMO it's always important to analyze the actual causes before making blank statements.

IME (several times) hearing the computer working is caused by currents flowing through the motherboard ground planes and PSU wires which are between ground point of the audio output on the board and the PE point of the computer PSU. A ground loop means these currents start flowing also through the connected ground loop - HDMI cable, USB cable, analog cable, etc. If these currents happen to run through return path of the analog signal, they get added to the audio-signal current and suddenly we can hear mouse moving, keys being pressed on the keyboard, hard drive accessing data (HDD), letters appearing on screen/changing graphics, etc. Every MB/GPU/soundcard combination behaves differently.

Every active device will produce ground loop currents if a ground loop occurs. Just some devices produce these currents small (inaudible), like low-consumption streamers, some produce them large, like potentially a PC with hundreds of amps feeding the CPU and tens of amps feeding a powerful GPU.

So the solution is to either break the ground loop via isolation (optical SPDIF, coax SPDIF with isolation transformer, USB highspeed isolator), or exclude the ground path from the return path of the audio signal - balanced analog connection. It's standard practice and not a PC's fault. Just suboptimally chosen components in the chain behind a component where large currents run (non-broken ground loop, single-ended analog lines). Using balanced connection or digital isolation should be a rule of thumb for PC audio if the components create a ground loop.

The USB highspeed isolators (which break the ground loop) cost 40 bucks now...

 

[xaviescacs]

What about a toslink switch? I see a bunch of them with remote for 20 bucks. I'd stick to toslink to solve the issue instead of playing around with the usb. My two cents.

 

[phofman]

Toslink (i.e. optical SPDIF) certainly breaks the ground loop. On the other hand toslink cannot transfer commands like volume control located in the DAC, does not allow async clocking mode to let the DAC clock become master, supports only 2 PCM channels, etc. In my opinion USB audio is more advanced. But toslink is perfectly fine too, absolutely.

 

[Roland68]

Laptops have the noisiest USB ports though

Sorry, but that's nonsense.
Take the high-quality HP business notebooks or HP notebook workstations or alternatively a Macbook, there are no problems.
If your notebook has a problem, it's because the manufacturer made it too cheap and saved too much money for their own pocket.

 

[Falco]

Hello,

I've been looking through the forums but nothing hit this topic the way I was hoping so I'll ask more directly.

I can hear my PC think through speaker. I have my Topping E30 hooked up to my PC and the pc noise comes through.

When streaming from the wiim mini there is no knoise to be heard.

Any help is welcome.

Just a question, which sound do you want to play through the E30? Regular pc sounds, calls, etc?
Or do you also want to stream music from the pc to the E30?

Because a solution for the latter scenario could be to add the folder to the music sources of the Wiim mini and let the wiim handle the music streaming.

Or do you always hear your pc through the E30? I had that a fair bit as well. My pc is connected to Audioengine 2+ internal usb dac, and I have a RPI with moOde via USB to a Topping D10s which in turn is connected via RCA to the same Audioengine 2+ speakers. But by exchanging the cables I got rid of the buzz, somehow using another USB cable solved it.

 

[Sokel]

Every time I say that the sane and respectful thing to do by the manufacturer's side is to include isolation to the DACs and interfaces I get a strong opposition that
"balanced don't care" or "SOTA DACs reject noise" or the best of all "it will be eXpEnSiVe"

Yet.here we go again with the thread of the week about the exact same problem a gazillion others have.
Don't you think we have to push at that direction instead of the absolutely inaudible couple of dBs over the 120 mark?

 

[Rainier939]

Just a question, which sound do you want to play through the E30? Regular pc sounds, calls, etc?
Or do you also want to stream music from the pc to the E30?

Because a solution for the latter scenario could be to add the folder to the music sources of the Wiim mini and let the wiim handle the music streaming.

Or do you always hear your pc through the E30? I had that a fair bit as well. My pc is connected to Audioengine 2+ internal usb dac, and I have a RPI with moOde via USB to a Topping D10s which in turn is connected via RCA to the same Audioengine 2+ speakers. But by exchanging the cables I got rid of the buzz, somehow using another USB cable solved it.

I want clean sound when I'm listening to music or youtube of whatever.
At the end of the night I usually shut of the pc and stream from the wiim mini and then there is no pc noise to be heard obviously.
I want that level of noise when the PC is turned on.

 

[Rainier939]

Every time I say that the sane and respectful thing to do by the manufacturer's side is to include isolation to the DACs and interfaces I get a strong opposition that
"balanced don't care" or "SOTA DACs reject noise" or the best of all "it will be eXpEnSiVe"

Yet.here we go again with the thread of the week about the exact same problem a gazillion others have.
Don't you think we have to push at that direction instead of the absolutely inaudible couple of dBs over the 120 mark?

I just want my pc to stop blasting it's coil whine into my speakers. How that's done I prefur it to be a cheapish solution. Why it's still a problem with pc-dac interaction idk. We solved so much of the basic problem in audio.
Big clean power is a thing, DACs with balanced outputs are "only" €200, easy streaming is cheap thanks to wiim.
But hooking up a dac to a pc will cause problems in the audible band ‍

 

[Timmy]

Main task with this problem should be to make sure that the PC and its sound card do not alter the audio information in any unnecessary way, while dealing with it.

Next thing to check should be the USB cable. Like simply trying another (new?) one, to see if that improves things.

 

[DoctorRobert]

I had a similar problem problem with SMSL A100 amp where I got rumbling noises in the subwoofer output that were correlated with PC activities. I am using the USB input of the A100 (the analogue input was much worse, noise wise). I fixed this with a cheap USB optical isolator. Works like a charm.

 

[DEF]

No, you are using the SMSL as a digital to digital bridge. The RME is performing DAC duties. Do you actually have an audible issue when you plug the RME straight into the PC via USB?

Before the USB Isolator I could hear sounds when I moved my mouse.
My speakers - that are on the other end of the room on the same DAC are connected via Toslink / S/PDIF. They pick up sounds when somebody is calling me.
It appears they are not that well shielded? APS Klasik 2020
I already got good cables that are extra made with problematic emissions in mind, so they got multiple shieldings against EMI

 

[Roland68]

Every time I say that the sane and respectful thing to do by the manufacturer's side is to include isolation to the DACs and interfaces I get a strong opposition that
"balanced don't care" or "SOTA DACs reject noise" or the best of all "it will be eXpEnSiVe"

Yet.here we go again with the thread of the week about the exact same problem a gazillion others have.
Don't you think we have to push at that direction instead of the absolutely inaudible couple of dBs over the 120 mark?

Also to @Rainier939
I completely agree with you, these are people who don't know enough about this subject and the problems associated with it.
Symmetrical connections only help with radiation in the connections from the device output to the device input, regardless of whether it is analogue or digital, no more and no less.
It can absolutely not help with interference, such as occurs with USB, which already gets into the signal path somewhere beforehand and pollutes the signal.
Any other statement is nothing but voodoo.

However, I am a big fan of eliminating problems at the source and not when they have already arisen, and that is bad power supplies and USB interfaces that have been compromised in some way.
With HP business notebooks, HP notebook workstations and Macbooks, even in the IT sector with very expensive devices and measuring technology, I have not had any problems in this area, but high-quality USB isolators are still used for safety reasons, e.g. from Intona.

 

[DEF]

Also to @Rainier939
I completely agree with you, these are people who don't know enough about this subject and the problems associated with it.
Symmetrical connections only help with radiation in the connections from the device output to the device input, regardless of whether it is analogue or digital, no more and no less.
It can absolutely not help with interference, such as occurs with USB, which already gets into the signal path somewhere beforehand and pollutes the signal.
Any other statement is nothing but voodoo.

However, I am a big fan of eliminating problems at the source and not when they have already arisen, and that is bad power supplies and USB interfaces that have been compromised in some way.
With HP business notebooks, HP notebook workstations and Macbooks, even in the IT sector with very expensive devices and measuring technology, I have not had any problems in this area, but high-quality USB isolators are still used for safety reasons, e.g. from Intona.

> USB isolators are still used for safety reasons,

Make some examples please, this is interesting.

 

[DEF]

@DEF

Please; in future if you are going to make blanket statements like you have done, then back them up with some solid evidence.

I saw some videos on YouTube years ago of people who measured a laptop and then measured a PC and then said that all laptops are like this.
That's why I remember it that way. So if we want to break the loop, we need to start learning the correct stuff from the start.
Or we question everything we read, hear or otherwise learn from anybody. But that is exhausting.

 

[Timmy]

I saw some videos on YouTube years ago of people who measured a laptop and then measured a PC and then said that all laptops are like this.

That's why I remember it that way.

 

[Sokel]

Also to @Rainier939
I completely agree with you, these are people who don't know enough about this subject and the problems associated with it.
Symmetrical connections only help with radiation in the connections from the device output to the device input, regardless of whether it is analogue or digital, no more and no less.
It can absolutely not help with interference, such as occurs with USB, which already gets into the signal path somewhere beforehand and pollutes the signal.
Any other statement is nothing but voodoo.

However, I am a big fan of eliminating problems at the source and not when they have already arisen, and that is bad power supplies and USB interfaces that have been compromised in some way.
With HP business notebooks, HP notebook workstations and Macbooks, even in the IT sector with very expensive devices and measuring technology, I have not had any problems in this area, but high-quality USB isolators are still used for safety reasons, e.g. from Intona.

I had luck with Gigabyte as an example,all of them were decent along with some certified PSUs.
Here's an example:



But is just that:luck.
And I don't think serious DAC manufacturer's should rely on that.
Even if we move the responsibility upwards from now on,what will happen with the millions old laptops and PCs still existing and usually are reproposed for the less demanding task of playing audio?

 

[Roland68]

I saw some videos on YouTube years ago of people who measured a laptop and then measured a PC and then said that all laptops are like this.
That's why I remember it that way. So if we want to break the loop, we need to start learning the correct stuff from the start.
Or we question everything we read, hear or otherwise learn from anybody. But that is exhausting.

But you should think a little.
This is not about PCs or notebooks/laptops, but about cheap consumer devices for consumers who want to buy cheap.
USB interfaces are equally good or bad on PCs or notebooks/laptops and that is exactly where everyone should use their brain. Why would someone make a video like this and would it be interesting if something different had come out? I could easily put together devices to get any desired result. Don't believe any statistics that you haven't faked yourself.
From over 20 years of professional experience in the IT sector with USB, especially with problems and solutions with USB, as well as with the corresponding measuring technology and USB analyzers, I can assure you that such a statement is absolute nonsense. If anything, it is more the other way around, because in the PC sector even cheaper rubbish was often sold, especially with regard to power supplies and motherboards, especially with the voltage conditioning.

And to your last sentence, welcome to today's world. We are now being lied to from all sides and in all areas. It's always about attention and money/power, so just question why certain videos exist and why they were made.

 

[Rainier939]

Even if we move the responsibility upwards from now on,what will happen with the millions old laptops and PCs still existing and usually are reproposed for the less demanding task of playing audio?

This is what I meant with my previous reply. How is this not a solved issue with dac manufacturers. If usb isolators cost not even $10 on amazon why isn't it in at least a entry level dac.
People are hooking up dacs to pcs and pcs are noisy machines. We use external dacs to get better performance then the basic dac on the motherboard and yet we have the same noise coming into the dac over usb. what ever lane is carrying that noise it should not get into the dac and cause so many problems.

 

[Sokel]

This is what I meant with my previous reply. How is this not a solved issue with dac manufacturers. If usb isolators cost not even $10 on amazon why isn't it in at least a entry level dac.
People are hooking up dacs to pcs and pcs are noisy machines. We use external dacs to get better performance then the basic dac on the motherboard and yet we have the same noise coming into the dac over usb. what ever lane is carrying that noise it should not get into the dac and cause so many problems.

The $10 ones you see don't do 480 Mbit/s,others are current limited,etc.
So a strong selling point (DXD up to 768kHz,DSD512,etc) is off if they use one of those.

It needs a decent one to cover all bases.