how to compare different pianos in different rooms?

[eric-c]

Odd request which I am hoping you can provide guidance. My son has gotten to a level where his piano teacher recommends moving to a grand piano from his current mediocre upright. We are shopping for grand pianos that are vastly different: new, used, brands, models, age, sizes, original used, rebuilt etc and they are in different rooms in different stores. From my experience with audio, the room makes a big difference in terms of how a speaker sounds. I trust the same sonic principles will apply to musical instruments such as placement in the room, room volume/dimensions, floor material, wall and ceiling material etc. Yes the sound of a specific piano a personal preference and our audio memories are not the greatest.

I've done a bunch of reading on various forums on the type of sound to expect from specific brands and models. My wife and I do not play piano although she plays violin. We are aiming for a grand between 5'7" and 6'1" and looking at the brand names such as Kawai, Schimmel, Steinway (old rebuilt - still $), Boston etc. Wife and kid did not like the various Yamaha's (played 6-7 of them) brighter and less harmonic sound at any of the stores we visited. Once we get home from a store, I do make notes in a word document for each store about the specific pianos and some key sound elements that my son, wife and I noticed.

With that said how would you listen and evaluate grand pianos in vastly different rooms?

My initial thoughts are:
1. open and prop the lid of grand piano
2. have my son play the exact same piece on each piano. His teacher suggested a specific piece he just used for his exam. The piece has quiet moments, loud dynamic moments, low notes, high notes etc
3. stand right by the opening of the lid (nearfield monitoring!) to minimize the room interaction.

Any tips and guidance is greatly appreciated.

One very positive aspect I did notice in this venture is that the people assisting us at each of the four unrelated piano stores have a vast amount of experience in piano technology including the science behind specific features. All the representatives we dealt with were Piano Technicians that could also play. They were also most accommodating.

Moderators - if this is not the appropriate sub forum then please move accordingly and hopefully not too off topic for this ASR.

 

[Wes]

only other thing I can think of is to make sure the treatments in both rooms are similar

 

[pierre]

One option is to buy a good midi piano (like kaway vst1) and a simulator like pianoteq. You can emulate the piano you want and fine tune in great details. You need a computer, a daw, pianoteq or similar and 2 speakers.

 

[DonH56]

That is pretty much how my wife auditioned pianos before getting her little grand (birthday present from me; bought me a lot of trumpet chits ). Action and keyboard "feel" was very important as well as the general sound, especially as we knew it was going into a much smaller room than the big open showrooms in which we auditioned so the sound would change. (And home trials were not an option.) We were looking at new pianos and narrowed down to Yamaha and Steinway before discovering Boston (by Steinway) and ultimately she liked a 5'10" Boston best. Not only did she like how it played, the broader tail makes it sound deeper and "bigger", more like a 6'2" grand, and took up a little less area in the room. It cost much less than a Steinway and she liked it much better than the Yamahas. We ruled out Kawai early as the few she tried she didn't care for the action or the sound even though one of her mentors recommended them. It's a very personal decision. Never tried a Schimmel, did try a couple I've forgotten (thinking Baldwin was one but it was very bright), and even a big Bosendorfer just for fun (way, way, way out of our price and size range, but neat seeing and hearing those extra keys and BIG sound!)

 

[CtheArgie]

This is a difficult assignment! My wife plays the piano quite well. Her mother has a beautiful Steinway but won't give it to her (yet). She decided she wanted to play at home in her piano and went about to get one. She listened (played) to pianos for hours. Touch, feel, etc. Made me go with her to listen from the sides. It was difficult at first to tell them apart. I didn't want to sound like an "audiophile". Eventually, you pick up a few things about the sound she told me she wanted. She ended up trading characteristics ($$$) and getting a very nice used Kawai in amazing state. Not a Steinway or Bosendorfer, but for the money it was a terrific buy. At home, it sounds gorgeous. We have high cathedral ceilings and a rather large open space. This may help with the opening of the sound. You may be able to help with the sound, but your son will have to decide on what kind of "touch" he wants.

There are tons of used pianos available, and I think it is a much better buy for now.

 

[eric-c]

Thank you for all your replies, It appears we are on the right track. Most of the rooms were the big open showrooms as DohH56 mentions. However there were some rooms that were the size of the average living room with 2-3 pianos in it. One of the piano's we are considering is a used Boston GP 178 aka 5'10 that my son likes in terms of feel and sound. We plan to only buy from stores vs private as the used pianos will come with 5-10 year warranty and have been checked out (or rebuilt) by their piano techs. The stores will also take trade ins and arrange for delivery tuning etc which lowers the PITA factor greatly.

 

[Inner Space]

I think your audition proposal is the right one. All will sound a bit weird from that location, but this kind of thing is comparative, not absolute. I would weight your conclusions equally with your son's impressions of touch and feel, which are very important. I have found Kawaii to offer great all-rounders, usually.

All that said, I'm a little surprised your son's teacher suggested the switch. From the pupil's point of view, an upright is much better at letting him hear what he's doing, both joyful and not. I would buy a great upright instead.

 

[eric-c]

Jim, great metaphor with the painter's brushers. Agree with the action. My kid is playing the prospective pianos. He has made comments on some pianos that the action is too heavy. Mostly so far these heavy action pianos have been new or rebuilt ones where the action has not been broken in yet (I suspect). Luckily, most of the pianos he has played have been tuned and regulated so it would be fairly representative in terms of feel. The rebuilt Steinways my son has played have the German made Renner Actions which were used in the Hamburg Steinways and now also in the newer NY Steinways vs in house NY made actions from years past. There is a Hamburg Steinway M that is about 2 weeks away from being restored. Although highly unlikely, I am hoping it sounds and feels like crap as I do not want to shell out the asking price which is in the ball park of new luxury German sedan.

Inner Space As moving from the upright to the grand, it is primarily for the quicker response on the keys based on the horizontal action design and for the richer and more dynamic sound (yes very dependent on the piano) as least this is my understanding. My friends kids piano teachers have also made similar comments. I do notice the much more pleasing sounding dynamic and richer sound when he practices on his teachers Steinway A vs his current Samick upright. Maybe its a placebo but my kid sounds like a better player on the Steinway. For the long term, we are looking at a grand as lifetime instrument my son can use to play for enjoyment.

 

[Jim Matthews]

What piano does his teacher use for instruction?

 

[Duke]

Yes the sound of a specific piano a personal preference and our audio memories are not the greatest.

I would trust a musician's aural memory of the instrument they play.

Any tips and guidance is greatly appreciated.

Yes the rooms are different and that affects the sound, but much moreso for the audience than for the pianist.

To put it in loudspeaker terms, the pianist is listening "nearfield" where the direct sound is dominant. Presumably the radiation patterns of the different pianos are similar enough that their room interaction will be fairly consistent from one piano to the next. Therefore whichever has the best sound nearfield has a high probability of having the best sound out where the audience is as well.

That being said, I am under the impression that the EXPERIENCE of the pianist as she plays feeds into her performance, so imo HER preference is what counts. The piano SHE most wants to play is the one she should get, and timbre is only one consideration.

That being said, I am NOT a pianist, so take the advice of a real pianist over mine.

 

[eric-c]

What piano does his teacher use for instruction?

1930-1940's Steinway A (6'2"). it still has the original ivory keys! Her studio is out of her house and she recently moved so I have heard the piano in her old room approx 13' x 20' x 8' (thick carpet and underlay on concrete) in the basement and her new room approx 18' x 16' x 8' (HW floor on the first floor). It does sound "fuller" in the new room probably because there is no carpet to absorb the sound and the "parent" seating is closer (8' ish) vs on opposite ends of the room.

 

[eric-c]

That being said, I am under the impression that the EXPERIENCE of the pianist as she plays feeds into her performance, so imo HER preference is what counts. The piano SHE most wants to play is the one she should get, and timbre is only one consideration.

I agree! so far of the pianos my son has played, his favorites so far are the least expensive ones (Samick Emperial Grand, Kawai GS-2, Boston GP-178) we looked at whereas the boss aka wife prefers the sound of the rebuilt Steinways. I am thinking it is 50% placebo. I should find a Steinway sticker and put is on a Samick and see how she responds.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

Action and playability are also important, not just the sound of the piano.

So the answer to your question, is to play the pianos, and choose the one which you enjoy playing the most.

Make sure the piano they sell you, is the same one that you enjoyed playing - as pianos of the same model often sound and feel different.

When you buy from manufacturers like Kawai or Yamaha, they will send a technician to your house to help prep and tune it. However, it will still always sound different, than when it was played in the showroom (unless your house has the same acoustics as the showroom).

Personally, I would focus my search on a new piano from Kawai or Yamaha.

Pianos do quite rapidly degrade in many ways with the number of hours spent playing on them, and require refelting of the hammers, refurbishment, etc, just like an old car might need to be restored.

So you can look at pianos as like buying a car, and therefore mileage is an issue. Like cars, most pianos also do tend to lose their value with time. Kawai pianos like the K300 are perhaps a good value for money choice for a child, as they are great fun even for experienced or professional adult players, and cost around $7500. (Although it should be noted that the more entry-level Kawai pianos like the K300 are built in Indonesia, while the more expensive Kawai pianos are built in Japan. Still, the K300 is an excellent piano, and far better than almost any of us pianists had growing up.) If you want to want to spend a couple thousand more, then there is the really excellent Kawai K500.

 

[BobbyTimmons]

One option is to buy a good midi piano (like kaway vst1) and a simulator like pianoteq. You can emulate the piano you want and fine tune in great details. You need a computer, a daw, pianoteq or similar and 2 speakers.

Pianoteq (and any VST or digital) is not quite comparable to playing on a real acoustic piano; it's a different experience (not always better or worse, but different). However, it can be a great adjunct. For example, if you want to practice at night with headphones, then a digital piano is an indispensable aid.

 

[pierre]

Pianoteq (and any VST or digital) is not quite comparable to playing on a real acoustic piano; it's a different experience (not always better or worse, but different). However, it can be a great adjunct. For example, if you want to practice at night with headphones, then a digital piano is an indispensable aid.

I agree. I really value the flexibility.

 

[oboist]

Can you ask the teacher to come and try some of the options you're considering? As your son is advancing one of the most important qualities that he will need in an instrument is how well it cooperates when he has to do things that are difficult. Since the teacher presumably can already do those things she/he will be in the best position to assess that dimension. My wife and I are professional musicians. She's the pianist and (at least before/after covid) is always out playing in different locations on different instruments as she accompanies various wonderful young instrumentalists. She'll much more often complain about how hard it is to play soft or loud or fast repeated notes etc. on one piano or another than she'll find fault with the specific sound quality. The piano has to have a sound that your son fundamentally likes but making music requires, above all else, the ability to control that sound with exquisite precision. We oboists face this issue daily since we're always playing on different reeds. We all learn the hard way to choose the reed that gives us the control that we need to make music rather than the one with a slightly better sound but that doesn't respond quite as well. Of course every now and then you come across the best of both worlds.

FWIW we have Steinway and Kawai grands in our living room. The Kawai is certainly the better instrument. The comment above that individual instruments within a brand and within a model vary considerably is very true.

 

[jsrtheta]

Action and playability are also important, not just the sound of the piano.

So the answer to your question, is to play the pianos, and choose the one which you enjoy playing the most.

Make sure the piano they sell you, is the same one that you enjoyed playing - as pianos of the same model often sound and feel different.

When you buy from manufacturers like Kawai or Yamaha, they will send a technician to your house to help prep and tune it. However, it will still always sound different, than when it was played in the showroom (unless your house has the same acoustics as the showroom).

Personally, I would focus my search on a new piano from Kawai or Yamaha.

Pianos do quite rapidly degrade in many ways with the number of hours spent playing on them, and require refelting of the hammers, refurbishment, etc, just like an old car might need to be restored.

So you can look at pianos as like buying a car, and therefore mileage is an issue. Like cars, most pianos also do tend to lose their value with time. Kawai pianos like the K300 are perhaps a good value for money choice for a child, as they are great fun even for experienced or professional adult players, and cost around $7500. (Although it should be noted that the more entry-level Kawai pianos like the K300 are built in Indonesia, while the more expensive Kawai pianos are built in Japan. Still, the K300 is an excellent piano, and far better than almost any of us pianists had growing up.) If you want to want to spend a couple thousand more, then there is the really excellent Kawai K500.

Agree. Action is paramount. Whether it's a piano, a guitar, or a flute, sound means nothing if you're fighting the action or it otherwise feels wrong. Sound begins with touch, with action the musician finds natural and responsive. And that differs from player to player.

 

[eric-c]

All, thank you for your valuable input. An update: revisited two stores, one store had five of our prime candidates including a newly received piano as it came in after our last visit. Went to the store with a score sheet with a ranking scale for touch/feel, responsiveness and different sound characteristics etc. Had my kid play two different pieces while I stood right beside the lid opening. My almost 10 year old would give me his rating for touch/feel, responsiveness and I would fill out the score sheet with impression of the sound characteristics. Only I kept track of the scoring, My wife and kid liked two specific pianos (a newer European one was far ahead of an older Japanese piano which is the newly received one) and this was in line with my scoring. I put a small deposit on both and the store will fully regulate both pianos and bring them in the same enclosed room (next week) where we will make our final decision. The models and brands have been omitted but I will be happy to disclose what we ended up with once we have it delivered.