Yes to all the amp stuff but if the room is robbing the bass the new amp will do very little to help and better DSP might help.
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How Much Improvement by Upgrading Amp?
- Thread starter Tomino
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- Thread Starter
- #22
I really appreciate your input. I honestly struggle to understand how drops in impedance fit into this equation. But I gather that it means more current is needed to maintain the same power, and therefore more robust amps, better engineered to deliver that added current, perform better. Better deliver of current might be associated with more powerful components, but it's really its own spec. I can write those words, but I can't say I really get it.
My takeaway will be, I should not solely be interested in more power, but better circuitry to handle difficult, low-ohm loads.
but also the room. A purchase of mic and free download of REW may give much more insight.
kemmler3D
Master Contributor
Transient response has to do with the frequency and phase response of the amp - typically these are flat as a board in the audible range, so not really a thing.
More headroom - if you are only using (say) 20/200 watts, you have enough headroom. This is worth running the numbers on using an SPL calculator on the web, but in all likelihood you won't hear the benefit of more headroom.
Greater dynamic range - unless you can hear noise from your amp you're already in good shape here.
Better control... This might be referring to "damping factor" - AFAIK it's not usually anywhere near the range where it could cause an audible problem.
One thing I will say is that AVR amps sometimes don't deliver everything they're supposed to. I can't show measurements or claim it was definitely not placebo, but I was running some power-hungry (more like 84dB sensitivity) speakers on a "100wpc" AVR. I upgraded to some Hypex NC500s and I could have sworn the bass got a lot better.
I will +1 to the suggestion of DSP. If your amp has room correction, use that, if not, get going with REW and a UMIK. An amp *might* improve things for you, DSP is highly likely to improve things, especially bass.
- Thread Starter
- #25
Totally agree. I'm only at this step of evaluating my system because I've already done room EQ using REW and a measurement mic.
Have you tried tweeking Onkyo's AccuEQ Room Calibration and Phase-Matching Bass Boost and rerunning REW. Sorry should have read that you did some already.
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So in summary what you want to know is if your AVR is sufficient for your speakers or does it run out of power or have other issues with them?
Hard to say with certainty. The specs listed give one some suspicion that the AVR at times might be borderline or insufficient due to lack of current. I could try explain why I think that to you, but for now I'll skip it. I would say this probably would only happen now and again. I don't think it would manifest as a general pervasive loss of quality just listening to music. So a new amp probably doesn't make your sound quality perk up across the board.
I think a Hypex or Purifi would remove any doubt you are getting less than your speakers are capable of giving. I also agree you wouldn't hear any difference in the Hypex vs the Purifi. So the cheaper Hypex is fine. I also think perhaps as someone suggested above you might just go with a better more powerful AVR. That keeps it simpler not having to switch back and forth. Although the switching you have in mind isn't very much of a burden.
Hard to say with certainty. The specs listed give one some suspicion that the AVR at times might be borderline or insufficient due to lack of current. I could try explain why I think that to you, but for now I'll skip it. I would say this probably would only happen now and again. I don't think it would manifest as a general pervasive loss of quality just listening to music. So a new amp probably doesn't make your sound quality perk up across the board.
I think a Hypex or Purifi would remove any doubt you are getting less than your speakers are capable of giving. I also agree you wouldn't hear any difference in the Hypex vs the Purifi. So the cheaper Hypex is fine. I also think perhaps as someone suggested above you might just go with a better more powerful AVR. That keeps it simpler not having to switch back and forth. Although the switching you have in mind isn't very much of a burden.
- Thread Starter
- #28
No, I've only used the Onkyo EQ for my 5.1 system, which uses the Revels as front L and R. For 2.0 music, I created my own filters using a UMIC measurement mic and REW software, then plugging those files into Roon. I'm not sure how to run the Onkyo system on my 2.0 setup without overwriting the 5.1 setup. I also have more confidence in the UMIC/REW combo for setting up the filters, but that could be wrong.
Curious, why aren't using a 2.1 for listening to music. Set the Onkyo to 2.1 run REW and use Roon to improve the LF. That will be your music setup. Sorry if I missed something again.
- Thread Starter
- #30
Three reasons: (1) My subwoofer is not of especially high quality (though it seems fine; just not super powerful or deep); (2) I figured the Revels had enough low-end for me; and (3) I've never really thought of seeing how well that might work. It's a good suggestion. I will find a time to figure out the Onkyo 2.1 setting, run the filters, and see what I get. Thanks!
Stereo on your music button gives you LF, RF, & Sub. I have just a 10" sub and an older Onkyo too. Looking to upgrade soon. Good Luck
From amir's test, looks like they go below 3.5ohms around 95Hz combined with a sharp phase shift there. An AVR will not get the best out of them:A question for those wiser and more experienced than me, on improving the sound from my Revel F208s by possibly changing amps from a relatively inexpensive AV receiver to a quality class D 2-channel stereo amp.
I've placed the speakers carefully and used REW and a measurement mic for room EQ. Currently the speakers are driven by an Onkyo TX NR686 AV receiver. Not exactly an audiophile component, but it drives the speakers to more than adequate volume, and generally sounds good. Here are the specs from Onkyo's website:
My question is: how much audible improvement, if any, would I hear in my system if I used an amp switcher to play music files through a dedicated class D amp in the $600 - $1000 range, like maybe one based on Hypex or Purifi components? I would still use the AV amp for TV.
My subjective experience with headphones is that the bass noticeably fills out with more power, independent of volume.
My hunch is, the decreased distortion of a better amp would not be very noticeable, but the increased power well might be. I mostly, but not exclusively, listen to classical music FWIW.
Thoughts welcome on how best to spend my audio budget. I fear the wait for <$1000 AV receiver with quality amplification could be a very long one.
Do the right thing and go Class A
Michi X3 is a beast at a relatively reasonable price.
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From amir's test, looks like they go below 3ohms around 95Hz combined with a sharp phase shift there. An AVR will not get the best out of them:
Do the right thing and go Class A
As stated in the graph, minimum impedance is 3.4 Ohms (at around 2.9kHz).
At 95Hz, they go below 4 Ohms, but not below 3.5 Ohms, and therefore not below 3 Ohms.
I have an older version of your AVR. Even as it is rated at 120W /8 Ohm with 2 channels playing. In a large room with capable speakers I would not think it puts out more then 40 Watt. At really high SPL it lacks power. It doesn't distort, it is just smoothing out any impulse. Feels like some limiter cutting off the peaks. Using another amp (no AVR) the speaker can deliver life SPL and feeling. So, yes, you can expect more from your speakers with a better amp. Also keep in mind, a HT receiver is always thought to be used with an active sub, crossing over to the speakers at 80Hz, so the power robbing bass is not their bussines.
Some mentioned those small D-amps (Topping, AYIMA, Fosi) with the TPA3255 chip inside. They are rated at 2x300 Watt. Most have an external power supply. How dynamic they sound and how powerfull they are is limited by the supply. They are offered, for example, with a basic 32 Volt, 4 Ampere PS, which makes them a nice 2x60W amp.
If you want the full performance, you have to feed them 46V with something like 10A. Then you can expect clean 2x 240 Watt/ 4 Ohm from such a tiny brick.
Even if it may sound strange, it makes sense to feed such a 50-100$ amp with a 90$ power supply. In this case they can perform miles above their price class.
The mentioned Mono versions are only stronger when a very low impedance is driven, like 2 Ohms from two 4 Ohm subs in parallel. Used with the same speaker you will not gain anything over the stereo version. The sometimes claimed "600Watt" are not realistic.
Some mentioned those small D-amps (Topping, AYIMA, Fosi) with the TPA3255 chip inside. They are rated at 2x300 Watt. Most have an external power supply. How dynamic they sound and how powerfull they are is limited by the supply. They are offered, for example, with a basic 32 Volt, 4 Ampere PS, which makes them a nice 2x60W amp.
If you want the full performance, you have to feed them 46V with something like 10A. Then you can expect clean 2x 240 Watt/ 4 Ohm from such a tiny brick.
Even if it may sound strange, it makes sense to feed such a 50-100$ amp with a 90$ power supply. In this case they can perform miles above their price class.
The mentioned Mono versions are only stronger when a very low impedance is driven, like 2 Ohms from two 4 Ohm subs in parallel. Used with the same speaker you will not gain anything over the stereo version. The sometimes claimed "600Watt" are not realistic.
- Thread Starter
- #35
Thanks Wolf11Man. What would be your take on some of the class D amps on offer from vendors like Buckeye using Hypex or Purifi guts? They seem well-reviewed. And how much power would you recommend for the F208's?
First, your Revel is not critical to drive for the amp. So you may pick what you like. Purifi is a state of the art amp and can drive any speaker, Buckeye seems to deliver good work. The price is very reasonable, you might get a more expensive looking amp for 5-10x the money, but no better one.
The 2-channel Purify should be able to drive your speaker to the limit, so I would go for this one.
If you want more, maybe later, get a second one and Bi-amp your speaker, IMO better than using mono blocks, but I think you should be satisfied even with just the 2-channels.
The 2-channel Purify should be able to drive your speaker to the limit, so I would go for this one.
If you want more, maybe later, get a second one and Bi-amp your speaker, IMO better than using mono blocks, but I think you should be satisfied even with just the 2-channels.
- Thread Starter
- #37
Thanks again. What would be your opinion of the Hypex NC502MP 2-Channel at 500W, which would be a third or more less expensive than the Purifi? I would guess that most any added distortion, as compared to the Purifi, would be swamped by factors relating to the room, the speakers themselves, etc., no?
I would just ask Buckeye. They have stated that there isn't an audible difference in this comparison of an NCoreX vs Purifi Gen 2.
Buckeye Amps: Purifi 1ET6525SA (the successor to the 1ET400A)
Heads up that we will finally be sending a Purifi 7040SA v2 to Amir for an official review. @Buckeye Amps I know this was quite some time ago but I was just wondering if you actually sent your 1ET7040SA v2 amp with Micro Audio's SMPS1K-PFCR2 to Amir for review? Also I know it's very much a...
audiosciencereview.com
If you are on a budget, the older Hypex amps are just fine. If you want to brag about having the newest amp, that is something else.
I don't think there is an audible difference between a well build Ncore and a Purify amp in allmost any case.
The Ncore is about as good as an amp can get, significantly better than the older Hypex stuff. When, in maybe a years or so, the next generation Purify amp is anounced, it will get even harder to show any difference. Probaply they will use some newer transistors in the future. Better? No, just new.
The quantum leaps in amp building are a thing of the past. There will be new parts, new ideas etc. but no real audible improvements in the future. Remeber, there are still some A and A/B, even chip-amps, that sound no worse than the best D-amps.
It is just the restless soul of marketing, that, from time to time, some changes (optical?) are made, to make a product look new, "updated" and still SOTA. Even if no objective improvements to it's function are present. The car industry is a nice example for this, you will not find any new automobile that objectively brings you better, cheaper, safer or more environmentally friendly from point A to point B than a car from 2005 did. In fact the opposite may be true.
Back to amps, even one of the mentioned small 50-100$ offers with a TPA3255 should not sound worse in comparison, if you give them a 48V/10A power supply.
The undersized PS is the main problem of your AVR as well, so if you repeat that with a 3255, the result should be identical.
I don't think there is an audible difference between a well build Ncore and a Purify amp in allmost any case.
The Ncore is about as good as an amp can get, significantly better than the older Hypex stuff. When, in maybe a years or so, the next generation Purify amp is anounced, it will get even harder to show any difference. Probaply they will use some newer transistors in the future. Better? No, just new.
The quantum leaps in amp building are a thing of the past. There will be new parts, new ideas etc. but no real audible improvements in the future. Remeber, there are still some A and A/B, even chip-amps, that sound no worse than the best D-amps.
It is just the restless soul of marketing, that, from time to time, some changes (optical?) are made, to make a product look new, "updated" and still SOTA. Even if no objective improvements to it's function are present. The car industry is a nice example for this, you will not find any new automobile that objectively brings you better, cheaper, safer or more environmentally friendly from point A to point B than a car from 2005 did. In fact the opposite may be true.
Back to amps, even one of the mentioned small 50-100$ offers with a TPA3255 should not sound worse in comparison, if you give them a 48V/10A power supply.
The undersized PS is the main problem of your AVR as well, so if you repeat that with a 3255, the result should be identical.
