How much impact does driver material actually make?

[Angsty]

Yes, the materials matter. But the implementation matters more.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Check "Zylon" (which by the way, used to make Dyneema under a different name and now branded "Izanas").

Just gotta get Amir some $15K Yamaha NS-5000s to test.

 

[Harmonie]

Just gotta get Amir some $15K Yamaha NS-5000s to test.

Yep >> you found it.

 

[Asinus]

Take it as a "my uncle works at nintendo" comment but a transducer engineer once told me that they spend most of the time designing the motor, specifically getting strong and stable magnetic flux in the gap and how the coil interacts with that flux in a way that is reproducible and consistent during mass production. The cone material is normally selected after they ran the numbers for their requirements.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Next tendency are stronger materials > PBO / Zylon.

I don't think any cones are near their elastic limit, so in terms of engineering stronger is not needed, the dynamic behaviour will be dominated by stiffness and damping.

 

[Killingbeans]

But you may know that it's extremely difficult to coat Pe and a composite would be way too heavy.

Ahhh yes, should have thought of that

 

[tvrgeek]

YES. If you want to know a little more about the many many properties that are relevant, start with the AES Loudspeaker Anthology going back to the 1940's and follow the research. It is not as simple as "piston" or even "breakup".

What matters of course is the end result and what each company can do with their chosen material. What you read is what the advertising department can make up as they don't have a clue what the engineers actually did.

What has changed since the '40's is not the science. We knew what we needed back then. What changed is materials technology. The goal being infinitely light, infinitely rigid, infinitely non resonant, and dirt cheap. Not only mutually exclusive parameters, but physically impossible. The answer is what tradeoffs are the best combination for the specific use case.

Any generalization on raw material properties, as above, only describes the material, not the end product.

I keep wondering if an aero-jell is to fragile.

 

[tuga]

This may interest you:

New Materials for Loudspeaker Diaphragms and Cones - Yamamoto, Tsukagoshi (Pioneer)

https://pdfhost.io/v/IOEXbf.hK_Cone_and_Diaphragm_Materials_a_1981_Overview.pdf

 

[tuga]

And a more casual evaluation of driver materials:

The Family of Direct Radiators (scroll down to where he describes Direct-Radiator Drivers)

http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html

 

[tuga]

YES. If you want to know a little more about the many many properties that are relevant, start with the AES Loudspeaker Anthology going back to the 1940's and follow the research. It is not as simple as "piston" or even "breakup".

What matters of course is the end result and what each company can do with their chosen material. What you read is what the advertising department can make up as they don't have a clue what the engineers actually did.

What has changed since the '40's is not the science. We knew what we needed back then. What changed is materials technology. The goal being infinitely light, infinitely rigid, infinitely non resonant, and dirt cheap. Not only mutually exclusive parameters, but physically impossible. The answer is what tradeoffs are the best combination for the specific use case.

Any generalization on raw material properties, as above, only describes the material, not the end product.

I keep wondering if an aero-jell is to fragile.

Ceramic is fragile...

 

[carewser]

I've heard far more praise for ribbon tweeters than I have dome, horn and especially cone tweeters
but i've never owned any speakers with ribbon tweeters to compare them

I'm sure many of you will remember the 1980's when translucent polypropylene woofers were all the rage? We seemed to have moved on from those days to Kevlar these days so that if someone pulls a gun on me, i'm pulling out my latest speakers to protect me

 

[ttimer]

Sadly i can't find the link at the moment, but i remember an interview with a Neumann engineer. He basically said that they use conventional plastic or doped paper woofers because fancier materials are more expensive for too little benefit. Looking at the kind of performance they get out of their drivers, it seems like there is hardly any need for fancy materials .

Although i could imagine that high-end drivers make it easier to design good speakers because there are fewer flaws you need to take into account. And they might help when designing within severe formfactor/optics constraints which requires drivers with unusual operating ranges.

 

[Wes]

you want a perfectly stiff material with zero mass

 

[levimax]

you want a perfectly stiff material with zero mass

Plasma has zero mass.... not sure how stiff it is https://www.lansche-audio.com/products/plasmatweeter/

 

[Harmonie]

I don't think any cones are near their elastic limit, so in terms of engineering stronger is not needed, the dynamic behaviour will be dominated by stiffness and damping.

Sorry maybe my bad expression at 2AM in French time zone. I totally agree with your comment
My meaning by "stronger" was stronger/better performance:
I did indicate as you damping and stiffness which in term of a yarn is measured by Modulus.

 

[Harmonie]

Plasma has zero mass.... not sure how stiff it is https://www.lansche-audio.com/products/plasmatweeter/

"Corona Plasma" is not the best name to choose nowadays ...

 

[Harmonie]

Sadly i can't find the link at the moment, but i remember an interview with a Neumann engineer. He basically said that they use conventional plastic or doped paper woofers because fancier materials are more expensive for too little benefit. Looking at the kind of performance they get out of their drivers, it seems like there is hardly any need for fancy materials .

Although i could imagine that high-end drivers make it easier to design good speakers because there are fewer flaws you need to take into account. And they might help when designing within severe formfactor/optics constraints which requires drivers with unusual operating ranges.

I agree therefore I personally would go for a paper cone made of pulp+ Zylon scf fiber (short cut 3 or 6mm fiber). I'll keep that in mind, until some R&D engineer reads us here. He is welcome to contact me.
The downside is that the market is too small to elaborate such expensive non-woven paper.

 

[RayDunzl]

Plasma has zero mass

That would make it travel at the speed of light.

 

[preload]

That "unsmoothed" response curve looks to me like an ungated in-room curve, meaning that the room's reflections are included, in which case they are almost certainly responsible for the "grass". If that is the indeed case, then imo neither the smoothed nor unsmoothed curves are giving us high-resolution insight into the behaviors of the drivers themselves. For that, we either need anechoic data, time-gated data, or very close-miked data (the latter being what Amir's speaker measurement system generates).

Very good point, Duke. I think you're absolutely right. I think it's a good reminder to me to be thoughtful about what I'm really measuring when I measure.

Now I'm curious how loudspeakers actually measure under anechoic conditions with high resolution sine sweeps and no smoothing.

 

[steve59]

Whew, the soft dome in my Beethoven speakers can give the be tweeters in 4 of the last 5 speakers I’ve had home, the 5th was a dmd tweeter and with the exception of the salon 2 I doubt I could tell them apart. My experience shows me the design goal and implementation matter more than material. That said I expect the materials with be/dmd have a higher ceiling in a cutting edge syste.