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How much impact does driver material actually make?

RayDunzl

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Now I'm curious how loudspeakers actually measure under anechoic conditions with high resolution sine sweeps and no smoothing.

Pretty smooth would be my guess.

Headphone, no sealing, no smoothing, mic stuck inside earcup:

1604534739180.png


I get to be wrong, of course.

I stuck a mic right in front of a JBL LSR 308, which I never do, and it was still a mess, though I thought it wouldn't be..

Nearfield (mic hanging in front of woofer) JBL LSR 308 (red) and Martin Logan electrostat (mylar sheet) at 10 feet:

Not anechoic for the either speaker, but the proximity of the mic to the woofer on the JBL "should" have overwhelmed room reflections in my now confused opinion.


1604536861061.png
 
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gags11

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Sorry for my lack of engineering knowledge. And material aside, this is what my son did to my ScanSpeak midrange. I cannot see any measurement difference. Is this ok or needs swapping for a new driver.
FA613E1B-A608-409B-A0C6-D892E8C534A5.jpeg
 

valerianf

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Looking at a professional audio speaker catalogue, they are using fancy materials only for diagrams of compression speakers and tweeters. I does not seem that the classic speakers need any exotic material but a powerful magnetic driver.
 

mhardy6647

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I've heard far more praise for ribbon tweeters than I have dome, horn and especially cone tweeters
but i've never owned any speakers with ribbon tweeters to compare them
Opinions & experiences differ on that topic.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/

That would make it travel at the speed of light.
Mass of matter increases without bound as one approaches c. Or at least that's how I understand it. ;)
But, yeah, plasma's not massless. It's stuff -- matter, not "just" energy.
I don't know how rigid it is... makes a pretty good tweeter, but low sensitivity (ie., horn loading's a "best practice" for plasma tweeters).
 

infinitesymphony

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Is Yamaha the only manufacturer using Zylon?

These are at the very top of my list to see and hear.
In 2001-2005, Zylon was used for bulletproof vests that were found to degrade very quickly. Toyobo were ordered to pay the US DoJ $66 million:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/japa...alleged-false-claims-related-defective-bullet

"...The settlement resolves allegations that between at least 2001 and 2005, Toyobo, the sole manufacturer of Zylon fiber, knew that Zylon degraded quickly in normal heat and humidity, and that this degradation rendered bullet proof vests containing Zylon unfit for use...Finally, in August 2005, the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) completed a study of Zylon-containing vests and found that more than 50 percent of used vests could not stop bullets that they had been certified to stop."

So hopefully they've worked out the lifespan details...
 

infinitesymphony

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Here's Genelec's take on dome tweeter materials:

"In general, dome tweeters are fairly efficient, and have low distortion and wide dispersion. There is a choice between hard and soft dome materials, but all have relatively low mass and good power handling capabilities.

Soft dome on-axis response can go flat easily over 20 kHz. As the material is soft, the dome does not vibrate as a piston – the first breakup modes are already present at a few kHz - but a bending wave propagates along the material to the center of the dome and back. At certain frequencies the center of the dome vibrates in anti-phase with respect to the voice coil. To control the vibration the soft dome is damped with viscous material and it absorbs the wave. At higher frequencies the soft dome becomes a ring radiator where the main radiation happens from a narrow area around the voice coil; i.e. both dome and surround radiate. This means that the off-axis response starts to drop soon above 10 kHz with a 25 mm dome, and this is visible in the power response. Several years go Vifa made a new soft dome tweeter, where they omitted the dome totally and made it a bare ring radiator. The diaphragm was supported from the center giving a distinctive look to this driver. Its on-axis response went to about 40 kHz but off-axis response dropped rapidly as it became directional.

Hard domes vibrate as a piston up to the first breakup frequency, which depends on dome material and size. The same physics works with hard domes as with soft domes, but as the speed of sound in a hard material is much higher than in a soft one, the first breakup frequency is typically around 25...26 kHz for a 25 mm aluminum or titanium dome and around 28..35 kHz for a 19 mm aluminum or titanium dome. Titanium is stiffer than aluminum, but as it is also heavier, the end result is practically the same. Beryllium dome breakups are higher.

Hard dome present also a greater power handling and maximum SPL output. Their dispersion characteristic allows a very efficient combination with a DCW waveguide which shapes the emitted wavefront in a controllable way, thus allowing control of the dispersion. Such DCW curved, rigid surface fitted in front of the driver unit can be dimensioned for constant directivity and may also extend down to low mid frequencies depending on the DCW frontal area.

A properly engineered hard dome tweeter can have extremely low distortions, good power handling, good directivity and it can be very reliable. All these parameters are objective reasons for our choice of hard dome tweeters."
 

Zvu

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Sorry for my lack of engineering knowledge. And material aside, this is what my son did to my ScanSpeak midrange. I cannot see any measurement difference. Is this ok or needs swapping for a new driver.
View attachment 91519

It is ok. Try to unscrew the driver out of the cabinet and push the dome back through magnet vent hole, if there is no protective metal grille in it. You will check before you try, of course. I've used thin wooden stick with rounded end for that job.
 

carewser

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Opinions & experiences differ on that topic.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/

Thanks for that link

I read the conclusion and it was surprising to say the least, they basically said that the shimmer, brightness and sonic sparkle created by ribbon tweeters were the result of distortion-something dome tweeters don't introduce to the musical equation, not only that but the ribbon tweeters tested and compared were 2X to 8X the price of the one dome tweeter they tested. Wow. If musical accuracy is what you're looking for, the way to go doesn't seem to be with ribbon tweeters
 
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infinitesymphony

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Sorry for my lack of engineering knowledge. And material aside, this is what my son did to my ScanSpeak midrange. I cannot see any measurement difference. Is this ok or needs swapping for a new driver.
View attachment 91519
Usually some combination of slightly wetting the dust cap with water and applying a vacuuming force. This vacuum method looks a bit gentler than a cleaner:

 

solderdude

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I have 'unpopped' a HD650 dome and this clearly was measurable. Arguably given the construction of the driver the dome is a relative large portion of the driver surface. It had an effect on some frequency bands. I unpopped them by gently blowing on the rear of the driver through the magnet hole while looking in a mirror to see when it pops back. Not much force was needed and nothing needed to be taken apart (aside from removing the grille)
l-dented-vs-fixed.png


I would say for woofers the effect is cosmetical but for 2 way it could also affect upper mids as the cone itself doesn't move as a piston for higher frequencies but breaks up. For tweeters, especially metal domes) it will not be only cosmetical I reckon (no proof whatsoever, only conjecture).
 
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Beave

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Sorry for my lack of engineering knowledge. And material aside, this is what my son did to my ScanSpeak midrange. I cannot see any measurement difference. Is this ok or needs swapping for a new driver.

You could try the masking tape method, where you lightly attach one end of masking tape to the indentation, then gently pull it out.

PS. It reminds me of old Mickey Mouse hats

51M9RZjrCpL._AC_UL1001_.jpg
 

Chromatischism

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Sadly i can't find the link at the moment, but i remember an interview with a Neumann engineer. He basically said that they use conventional plastic or doped paper woofers because fancier materials are more expensive for too little benefit. Looking at the kind of performance they get out of their drivers, it seems like there is hardly any need for fancy materials.
To be fair, they are using DSP so they shape their own destiny, as long as it's "close enough" to begin with.
 

Kachda

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Sorry for my lack of engineering knowledge. And material aside, this is what my son did to my ScanSpeak midrange. I cannot see any measurement difference. Is this ok or needs swapping for a new driver.
View attachment 91519

surprised you haven’t been sued by disney yet
 

carewser

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I took the grille off one of my little Klipsch Promedia's one day and found one of the dust covers had been pushed in but i'm very careful with my toys and don't drink a lot or do a lot of drugs yet I had zero recollection of this happening so my mind was blown. Even though I knew it made no difference to the sound, it just looked bad so I pushed the other one in to at least make them look the same but since it makes no difference to the sound why don't all speakers just come with convex dust caps? Voila! Problem solved. I started watching the video on how to fix them but any video that starts off by telling you that you need "duck tape" is hard to take seriously
 

infinitesymphony

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I started watching the video on how to fix them but any video that starts off by telling you that you need "duck tape" is hard to take seriously
Please overlook that error, and also overlook the fact that it's not even duct tape, it's packaging tape. o_O

It's a pretty cool method for creating a vacuum.
 

carewser

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Please overlook that error, and also overlook the fact that it's not even duct tape, it's packaging tape. o_O

It's a pretty cool method for creating a vacuum.


Yeah, LOL, that was the other thing, they weren't even using duct tape!

When I have time later i'll try it, thanks for the link
 

valerianf

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The best material that I have ever heard for a tweeter is a plasma field:

Apart the fantastic visual effect, main advantage was the 360° dispersion of the high frequencies!
Not any modern tweeter has such a sound-field.
 

Harmonie

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In 2001-2005, Zylon was used for bulletproof vests that were found to degrade very quickly. Toyobo were ordered to pay the US DoJ $66 million:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/japa...alleged-false-claims-related-defective-bullet

"...The settlement resolves allegations that between at least 2001 and 2005, Toyobo, the sole manufacturer of Zylon fiber, knew that Zylon degraded quickly in normal heat and humidity, and that this degradation rendered bullet proof vests containing Zylon unfit for use...Finally, in August 2005, the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) completed a study of Zylon-containing vests and found that more than 50 percent of used vests could not stop bullets that they had been certified to stop."

So hopefully they've worked out the lifespan details...


I don't know if you are in this biz and what you are trying to demonstrate, but you can't really compare material for Hifi use and bullet proof jackets ;)
 
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