Horn Speakers - Is it me or.......

[anmpr1]

I auditioned those JBLs. I didn’t like them, at least in the store setup, which was pretty bad.

Any speaker, especially a large speaker, has to be listened to in one's house, for a while. You have to move it around, find the best position, and try and adapt it to your domestic environment, as best you can. Small speakers should be brought home too, but they can better be demoed in a store environment, because of their small wave launch and form factor. The problem with large speakers is they are sometime difficult to integrate into a domestic environment, simply because they are so large. It's more difficult to move them around; more difficult to experiment with them. Smaller speakers can be moved around much easier, and the feng shui is often better integrated into the typical living room. Also, some horn speakers demand a certain set up (like a corner), and if you don't have that there is no point getting involved with them.

 

[mitchco]

@pos I think the statement from Earl's paper, "It should be obvious at this point that all waveguides are horns, but not all horns are waveguides. The difference is if the directivity of the device can be analyzed analytically or not" is the determining factor. Of course Earl is going to say it can be only an OS waveguide, but we know that there are other types of "waveguides" that are "constant directivity" devices as you mention. Which ones are better are a matter of debate, (no diffraction slots please), but to me the main difference is whether the device is constant directivity or not. This is the fundamental difference between a horn and a waveguide.

For example The JMLC 350 is a horn:

And a very "beamy" one at that. Move your head off axis just a bit and the hi frequency all but disappears. Not only do you get the "head in vice" issue, but the off axis frequency response is coloured due to frequency dependant directivity issues. When I hear folks say they don't like the sound of horns, this is what comes to my mind. Personally, I can't listen to it.

On the other hand, this Pyle YD-L033 is a constant directivity device:

Of course this is not the full story, but again to me this is the fundamental difference between a horn and waveguide.

I really like the work that Marcel is doing at: http://www.at-horns.eu/ for being able to design and model constant directivity devices.

 

[etc6849]

Of course, but I wouldn't say yanked. More like carefully unscrewed and removed

Did you yank the passive crossovers out of the Klipsch es?

 

[peanuts]

too be fair, all 2" exit drivers will start to beam above 7khz (2" wavelenght)

 

[Sal1950]

Of course, but I wouldn't say yanked. More like carefully unscrewed and removed

I'm positive you treated these crossovers with all the respect due a top quality speaker such as these.

 

[March Audio]

So only those round horn designs are real horns?
You said this was not a horn?

So then Klipsch doesn't make horns?

Another point is the every design has it's weaknesses, most have minor coloration's of their own, some are insane loads that can drive normal amps into instability. Some require insane amounts of power to make a squeak and their distortion levels at normal listening db are questionable. Some like to turn into a Tesla coil impersonation if driven too hard.
You buy your ticket and take your ride.

How many times, I have told you what I am referring. no these are not the type of horns I talking about.

A massive throated horns I have experienced do not sound the same as these smaller devices. So can you stop being so pedantic and repeatedly bringing it up?

This may be down to individual design as opposed to any fundamental technical difference, but in that case all the large horn designs I have heard are making the same mistake.

 

[March Audio]

Amen on that. That is the number one reason the term "wave guide" have become so popular over the last couple decades. All the cupped hands nonsense that has been repeated since the acoustic suspension revolt of the 60s. Could people not hear what they gave away for a few hz of bass? Paul Klipsch used to walk around with a pin on his jacket that said BULLSHIT. LOL

Cupped hands is exactly what I have heard with all the large horns I have experienced. The most recent ones I heard had awful laser beam directivity and lost all HF off direct axis.

 

[March Audio]

@pos I think the statement from Earl's paper, "It should be obvious at this point that all waveguides are horns, but not all horns are waveguides. The difference is if the directivity of the device can be analyzed analytically or not" is the determining factor. Of course Earl is going to say it can be only an OS waveguide, but we know that there are other types of "waveguides" that are "constant directivity" devices as you mention. Which ones are better are a matter of debate, (no diffraction slots please), but to me the main difference is whether the device is constant directivity or not. This is the fundamental difference between a horn and a waveguide.

For example The JMLC 350 is a horn:

View attachment 37944

And a very "beamy" one at that. Move your head off axis just a bit and the hi frequency all but disappears. Not only do you get the "head in vice" issue, but the off axis frequency response is coloured due to frequency dependant directivity issues. When I hear folks say they don't like the sound of horns, this is what comes to my mind. Personally, I can't listen to it.

On the other hand, this Pyle YD-L033 is a constant directivity device:

View attachment 37945

Of course this is not the full story, but again to me this is the fundamental difference between a horn and waveguide.

I really like the work that Marcel is doing at: http://www.at-horns.eu/ for being able to design and model constant directivity devices.

It's clear to me that directivity is an issue with these devices and probably accounts for the major subjective difference in sound. Its also obvious that the design of horns in this respect is far more challenging and problematic, so why are certain people so up in arms about a certain subjective experience thinking it unrepresentative?

 

[Sal1950]

How many times, I have told you what I am referring. no these are not the type of horns I talking about.
A massive throated horns I have experienced do not sound the same as these smaller devices. So can you stop being so pedantic and repeatedly bringing it up?

I had the exact same opinion as you, until I heard a good sounding horn speaker, the JBL S4700. It opened my eyes.

That's not what I refer to as a horn speaker.

Don't get your panties in a bunch, I just repeated what you said and asked then if the only thing you consider a horn was the large round ones?
In that case then the JBL and Klipsch's are not horns in your view, correct?

 

[March Audio]

Don't get your panties in a bunch, I just repeated what you said and asked then if the only thing you consider a horn was the large round ones?
In that case then the JBL and Klipsch's are not horns in your view, correct?

British please, its " knickers in a twist"

I have been clear in what I am referring to with my subjective experience and yes I differentiate between the two because I have not heard the same sorts of problems with small short throat horns as you are describing.

As I said, my view is that this is probably more about individual design and less about horns per se.

As Mitch has pointed out directivity is going to make a huge difference to the sound. Is it any surprise that a highly directive horn is going to sound odd? Well it shouldn't be. Let's not forget Floyd Tooles work.

That's a good point. I wonder what view @Floyd Toole has on this?

 

[Floyd Toole]

Floyd Toole put a JBL Pro M2 on the cover of the 3rd edition because of its excellence. A superior new short throat horn design combined with a superior new compression driver with dedicated electronics combine to yield a highly transparent, neutral, loudspeaker capable of high sound levels.. Isn't this the goal?

 

[March Audio]

Must have been the cables they used.

Expectation bias? Why is it everyone blames it for everyone else, but won't believe it for themselves?

It is of course a possibility, however we can relate real technical issues (directivity) to my subjective experience.

 

[March Audio]

Floyd Toole put a JBL Pro M2 on the cover of the 3rd edition because of its excellence. A superior new short throat horn design combined with a superior new compression driver with dedicated electronics combine to yield a highly transparent, neutral, loudspeaker capable of high sound levels.. Isn't this the goal?

Of course, but what about the potential issues of directivity with certain horn designs and the subjective effect that might have?

 

[etc6849]

The passive crossovers did sound pretty nice. I just really wanted to tri-amp and use FIR filters. No going back to passive crossovers for me.

I'm positive you treated these crossovers with all the respect due a top quality speaker such as these.

 

[Wombat]

British please, its " knickers in a twist"

I have been clear in what I am referring to with my subjective experience and yes I differentiate between the two because I have not heard the same sorts of problems with small short throat horns as you are describing.

As I said, my view is that this is probably more about individual design and less about horns per se.

As Mitch has pointed out directivity is going to make a huge difference to the sound. Is it any surprise that a highly directive horn is going to sound odd? Well it shouldn't be. Let's not forget Floyd Tooles work.

That's a good point. I wonder what view @Floyd Toole has on this?

(Or "knickers in a knot". Let's not confuse Thomas.)


See my avatar if directivity is a bother.

 

[Sal1950]

The passive crossovers did sound pretty nice. I just really wanted to tri-amp and use FIR filters. No going back to passive crossovers for me.

Love to hear your rig, I just might show up in Columbia one of these days.

 

[briskly]

@pos
A conical horn explicitly is a waveguide per Geddes' original definition.

The concept of a waveguide as a direct solution to the wave equation was shown to be capable of exact solution, free of plane-wave assumption of Webster's [horn] equation.

An exact(it is also 1-parameter) solution to the mouth wavefront exists when the throat is presented with a suitable wave. The issue is that the throat needs to be presented by a spherical wavefront, not something a typical compression driver phase plug is suited to create. Nor most other driver mechanisms, since they are broadly based on pistons. Exact solutions to the wave equation are tricky to devise beyond some limited shapes, and the real horn needs a termination at some point and likely in some finite cabinet. This is not something I would suggest thinking too much about in terms of an analytic solution.

As a note, KEF's radial phase plug can be taken as their method to satisfy the throat condition and attempts to force a spherical wavefront from a spherical-shaped dome tweeter.

 

[Wombat]

Altec Lansing and constant directivity:

Arguably, the first radial phase plug to be widely used commercially was patented by Clifford A Henrickson(assignee Altec Lansing Corp) on 27 September 1977. The patent expired on the 7th of this month.

It was first put to use around 1986 in the following loudspeakers:

The patent.

Some years after the 11-slot model, a 13 slot version appeared in the 9xx series compression drivers which were matched to the Mantaray horns,

Some early phase plug history.


Added to the radial phase plug equipped drivers were the Altec Mantaray constant directivity horns:

The little one:

 

[watchnerd]

Altec Lansing and constant directivity:

Arguably, the first radial phase plug to be widely used commercially was patented by Clifford A Henrickson(assignee Altec Lansing Corp) on 27 September 1977. The patent expired on the 7th of this month.

It was first put to use around 1986 in the following loudspeakers:

View attachment 38211

View attachment 38212

The patent.

Some years after the 11-slot model, a 13 slot version appeared in the 9xx series compression divers which were matched to the Mantaray horns,

Some early phase plug history.


Added to the radial phase plug equipped drivers were the Altec Mantaray constant directivity horns:

View attachment 38213


View attachment 38214



The little one:

View attachment 38215

Thank you for that cool bit of history!

 

[Floyd Toole]

what about the potential issues of directivity with certain horn designs and the subjective effect that might have?

Of course directivity matters. It changes the temporal and directional patterns and sound quality of early reflections in a room. Horns of any directivity can be well behaved, or not, so generalizations are unsafe. In terms of sound quality, it seems that the constancy or smoothness of change in DI is more important than the DI itself. The dominant effect is spatial, not timbral. There is much discussion of this in forums, and personal preference is a factor. Stereo is so limited in its capabilities to convey spatial/enveloping sound that this is where it matters most. I use mutlichannel upmixing of stereo sources, so this factor fades to insignificance.

The M2 uses a 120 x 100 deg horn, which is close to the DI of cone and dome speakers (see Figure 10.15 in the 3rd edition of my book). It was designed as a studio monitor. However, this was not always the case; see Figure 12.8, where the UREI 811 exhibits atrocious DI, closely matching that of the comparably atrocious Auratone.

There is a lengthy discussion of a carefully conducted blind comparison between the M2 and the Revel Salon2 in AVSForum. It was a photo finish, probably a statistical tie.