Horn Speakers - Is it me or.......

[egellings]

Factoid: An L-pad puts resistance in series with the loudspeaker, thereby reducing the effective damping factor of the power amplifier, as well as becoming part of a voltage divider with the frequency-dependent impedance of the loudspeaker - meaning that the frequency response of the loudspeaker is changed in a manner related to its impedance curve.

True. L-pads are best used in distributed PA systems that allow adjustment of individual speaker volumes to get a good even room coverage. Sound quality, beyond good intelligibility, is not an issue in that setting.

 

[EliGuy]

Here is a design Im working on.. decent directivity and off axis response.

 

[EliGuy]

Now look at the horrible in room response (orange trace). Alot of that hash is in the critical 1 khz to 3 khz range. This is why big waveguides sound so good. They smooth alot of that out at the listening position.

 

[Tim Link]

Now look at the horrible in room response (orange trace). Alot of that hash is in the critical 1 khz to 3 khz range. This is why big waveguides sound so good. They smooth alot of that out at the listening position.View attachment 297883

I think you're right. This is why my long term goal is to build some big midbass horns to get my system back to fully horn loaded. I've been surprised lately at how much I'm enjoying using direct radiator bookshelf speakers for the time being. By keeping the speakers a decent distance from the sidewalls the problem seems to be reduced. Also delaying early side reflections with acoustic treatments can further help.

 

[multichannel_guy]

The reverse is true for me now . When I listen to most non waveguided speakers they always sound like a speaker to me. This is because I'm hearing so many of the room reflections corrupting the signal. You're hearing the ambience of the room in the recording and then hearing your room filtering the signal again. Most of the problems with horns go away when the horns get big enough. Once you get directivity control down below the room transition frequency you dont have that jarring drop off where the sound splashes around. I tend to like wider directivity horns above 90 degrees. 60 degree horns below 1500hz can sound a bit shouty to me. One of my biggest realizations going to horns was just how much of the signal is lost to the room. It doesnt matter how good your midranges are if the sound splashes around your untreated room. Even a cheap driver sounds much better when the sound is directed toward your eardrums.

The 90 degree horns have more room reflections. However, after one treats the room, it is more desirable than the 60 degree horns (shouty)? Is that the consensus?

 

[EliGuy]

The 90 degree horns have more room reflections. However, after one treats the room, it is more desirable than the 60 degree horns (shouty)? Is that the consensus?

If I could treat the room the way I actually wanted I probably woudn't use horns. I'd use a dome midrange with the highest possible dispersion. The problem is for that I would need a dedicated room which I don't have.

 

[multichannel_guy]

If I could treat the room the way I actually wanted I probably woudn't use horns. I'd use a dome midrange with the highest possible dispersion. The problem is for that I would need a dedicated room which I don't have.

There's probably no real way to measure this, but, on some expensive horns, i feel like the vocalist is immediately sitting inside your head, some kind of weird adrenalin rush. I have not experienced it with the other type of speakers such as panels, concentric drivers, open baffle and others, which is maybe what some guys are describing as "live" sound. Unfortunately, they are not in the price category, i can afford. Maybe, DIY could make that type of sound affordable. The other affordable horns such as Klipsch just sound rough and induce nausea.

 

[MAB]

Basically just removes alot of the hiss and other yuckies out of the signal from some noisy amps. Reducing the volume via L-Pad and then increasing the signal increases the signal relative to the noise floor. Im getting out of my depth here, but I have employed this many times and heard the results. Basically when you hear hiss, most of that can be removed with an L-Pad to where it isnt audible from 8 feet away.

Yes.
Here are noise measurements on a D2 compression driver with several different amps with different levels of noise.

Topping PA5 II Stereo Amplifier Review

Please report on your findings. Perhaps if you use the stock psu with a regulator this may help, with sufficient capacitance to prevent voltage sag at high volumes 1 - what makes you think there is voltage sag? 2 - The stock PSU is probably already regulated. 3 - Even if there were voltage sag...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I measure with and without the passive filter. I even did a measurement with only an 8uF filter cap in series and it had almost the same effect as an L-pad.
Also note, the noise is quite low in frequency, not exactly hiss.

 

[Bjorn]

The 90 degree horns have more room reflections. However, after one treats the room, it is more desirable than the 60 degree horns (shouty)? Is that the consensus?

A 60° horn becomes seriously big in order to achieve some broad band directivity. About 1.4 m wide to have constant 60° down to 300 Hz for example.

To say that a horn with 90° will sound better than a horn with 60° beamwidth if the room is treated doesn't make a of sense as it will totally depend on the room geometry, type of treatment, and the goal.

 

[multichannel_guy]

A 60° horn becomes seriously big in order to achieve some broad band directivity. About 1.4 m wide to have constant 60° down to 300 Hz for example.

To say that a horn with 90° will sound better than a horn with 60° beamwidth if the room is treated doesn't make a of sense as it will totally depend on the room geometry, type of treatment, and the goal.

Please fill in these blanks. What is it specifically for each horn type?

60 degree horn:
Room geometry: _____
Treatment type: _______
Goal:_______


90 degree horn:
Room geometry:______
Treatment type:_______
Goal:________

 

[Bjorn]

Please fill in these blanks. What is it specifically for each horn type?

60 degree horn:
Room geometry: _____
Treatment type: _______
Goal:_______


90 degree horn:
Room geometry:______
Treatment type:_______
Goal:________

It's not that easy. In what frequencies is the speaker constant at 60° or 90°?
And all these points influence each other, creating many variables.

For instance: Let's say you have a room that isn't very long but it's quite wide. Because of too close proximity to the rear wall, you can't place diffusers there. You have to primarily absorp the rear wall reflections. In that case, it's very likely that it would be favourable to place diffusers on the opposite side wall reflection points. And that would imply also having a speaker with sufficient wide beam width.

Or let's say you have a very narrow and long room and you can't place treatment on side walls due to windows, WAF, etc. In that case, a very narrow horizontal directivity is likely to be the better choice. But you also have to weigh the directivty up against the size of horn you can live with. If the widest you can live is 60 cm, I probably wouldn't choose a direcitvity of 60° because it would collapse too high in frequency.

 

[Ktacos]

Old-ish thread but I seem to also run into horns sounding like horns and giving me a sort of headache and weird feeling. I built a diy design, the VBS 10.2 and while it seems to do some things well, like get loud and sound good while doing it, it just sounds kind of off. I get the sort of cupping sound described by the OP and I've heard it that in some waveguides as well. I tried them in two rooms one with plenty of space and the other that's pretty small and in both spaces they made me just kind of feel weird, like head in a vice sort of sound.

I built these to try and get a neutral loud speaker to mix on at a distance, or lower volumes at say 2m, and I find it tough to use for that, everything feels kind of forward and pokey to the point that I get fatigued really quick. The response is as linear as anything else I have but something about the horn and CD just make me restless and not really want to use the speakers.

 

[Doodski]

Old-ish thread but I seem to also run into horns sounding like horns and giving me a sort of headache and weird feeling. I built a diy design, the VBS 10.2 and while it seems to do some things well, like get loud and sound good while doing it, it just sounds kind of off. I get the sort of cupping sound described by the OP and I've heard it that in some waveguides as well. I tried them in two rooms one with plenty of space and the other that's pretty small and in both spaces they made me just kind of feel weird, like head in a vice sort of sound.

I built these to try and get a neutral loud speaker to mix on at a distance, or lower volumes at say 2m, and I find it tough to use for that, everything feels kind of forward and pokey to the point that I get fatigued really quick. The response is as linear as anything else I have but something about the horn and CD just make me restless and not really want to use the speakers.

I am not a speaker expert like some are here but I can say that I ran Altec Lansing compression drivers with metal horns and they sounded fantastic and realistic. Maybe it's the horn you are using? I think that not all horns sound brash and cupped sounding.

 

[Bjorn]

If a horn "sounds like a horn" with a lot of coloration it's simply a poor horn design. But yeah, there's a lot of that in the market!
The best horn designs are perhaps closer to reality than anything else, and few have heard it. Requires large horn designs with constant diectivity, active designs with optimal crossovers, and quality drivers.

 

[JSmith]

few have heard it

I'd suggest most would have in a cinema and other large venues.


JSmith

 

[Chris A]

I'd suggest most would have in a cinema and other large venues.

Probably not at the 3-4 m listening distance that is typical of home hi-fi, and certainly not with the rather unforgiving "small room" acoustics with characteristic 100-200 Hz Schroeder frequency that home consumer recordings are mixed/mastered for (with characteristic thin sound due to mastering EQ to offset the lack of most home hi-fi loudspeaker directivity control around the room's Schroeder frequency).

Just put a pair of typical professional behind-the-screen cinema loudspeakers in a typical home hi-fi room's acoustics: they don't typically sound the same at all unless they have full-range horn loading/directivity control down through 100-200 Hz. In a commercial cinema, those Schroeder frequencies are typically much lower than home hi-fi--due the the larger room size and damping.

Chris

 

[Wesseling Audio Lab]

I find it hard to believe there is a horn design without noticeable colouration, even if minimal.
Horn Baffles run in front of the radiation and that alone with all of the reflections, it would seem will always cause horn coloration no matter how well designed otherwise.

But, Joseph Crowe has declared that horn coloration is non existent with his designs. I hope to have a listen eventually. They are beautifully crafted.

 

[Hear Here]

OK, it happened again. I recently listened to some large horn speakers. I have periodically done this over many years at various hifi shows. I came away again with the same thoughts. I just don't get them.

Firstly they were clearly highly directional. Unless I was right bang in the firing line on axis they had no high frequencies.

Secondly, mid range seemed over emphasised with a "cuppy" effect. Exactly like the sound you get if you cup your hands around your mouth.

Lastly they were no more dynamic than any other large speaker.

All the same characteristics I have heard previously.

Is it me? Am I biased? Heard the wrong horns? Some rave about horns but it's lost on me.

What are others experiences?

I've just come to this thread and haven't followed the multi-page replies that seems to have diverged from the subject.

So, in reply to the OP's plight, I'd need to ask which horn speakers has he heard at shows that have disappointed him?

Secondly, he's dead right, horns do have a small sweet spot because they are very directional. This means that at Shows where many seats are set up for listeners (and potential customers) the exhibitor has a real dilemma. Does he set them up for best sound - for the guy in the centre front seat? Or does he deliberately compromise this ideal and set them up so that all listeners get an idea of the sound, yet no one gets the full benefit? I've personally been in this position when I loaned my horn speakers to a tube amp manufacturer at a UK show. We took the compromise route by facing the speakers far more directly forward than they would be if installed in your home. Despite this, many visitors commented that this combo of tube amps and speakers produced the best sound in how.

So, please don't judge good horn speakers by how they may sound at a Show - they simply won't be set up for best performance. Visit a reputable dealer showroom where hopefully they can be set up for the listening chair - then arrange a home demo or loan if sufficiently impressed!

Because horns are so directional, they offer big advantages as well as a disadvantage. The disadvantage, as suggested above, is a small sweet spot so ideal for you to listen on your own leaving any other listeners with good but not best sound.

The advantages are that well set-up horns will deliver the best (of all types of speaker) imaging - the ability of the listener to close his eyes and be able to point unambiguously at each instrument and vocalist at the original performance as if he is sitting in the best seat at that performance. That's a pretty good test and is overwhelmingly won by horns, with perhaps electrostatics next and omnis last and the best of conventional box speakers somewhere between.

The other huge advantage that horns offer is their tolerance of room anomalies. With most speakers, you need to place them x ft from the wall behind them and well away from side walls if you want their best sound. Horns, being so directional ignore the proximity of walls or other obstacles - but they still need precise positioning in terms of toe-in, distance from listener, perhaps tilt for optimum sound. Get these things right and I challenge any other type of speaker to deliver the degree of excitement and detail that you get from the original live version of the performance you are listening to.

Perhaps like the OP, I had seen fancy horn systems at shows and walked past them, even without listening to them - if they look that bonkers, the designer must be concentrating more on their looks than sound quality! It was only when I bought the speakers that I'd been hankering after for years, only to be seriously disappointed (these were ATC Active 50s), that I seriously started research mainly via Stereophile that I was then (2002) subscribing to. I read Robert Deutsch's excellent and highlly descriptive review of the Avanthgarde Uno speaker that I'd noticed had recently picked up their "Speaker of the Year" award. Robert described EXACTLY the sound that I was looking for and so different from the ATCs. After a 10 minute demo in a grubby London basement showroom, I was convinced and bought a pair. 17 years later, I upgraded (after an unsatisfactory excursion into electrostatics) to Duos and more recently into the Duo XDs I currently own.

I'll grant you there are lots of pretty poor horn or "honky" speakers around, but that's largely because these are at the cheaper end of the market. The best horns are unrivalled in their ability to recreate the original performance with startling detail and accuracy. I hope the OP will look again at the pros (and cons) of horn speakers and arrange a proper demo.

PS - With sensitivities of 100+ dB, only a handful of watts are required, so no massive outlay on monstrous power amps is needed. I use a first-class Class D amp after previously using SETs. Both get my horns singing just like the artist was at the original performance!

 

[mhardy6647]

I am not a speaker expert like some are here but I can say that I ran Altec Lansing compression drivers with metal horns and they sounded fantastic and realistic. Maybe it's the horn you are using? I think that not all horns sound brash and cupped sounding.

It's all about* the throat -- the transition from the compression driver to the horn. Some horns - yes, even vintage ones - get that very, very right.
Some don't.
Altec themselves were responsible for bad horns and good horns even in their heyday.

I was listening to my own Frankenaltecs** yesterday with our granddaughter -- and I was reminded yet again, and vividly, how danged nice they are to listen to.
______________
* OK... it's not all about the transition -- but it is really important.
This isn't exactly on-point, but it's a nice empirical example of the ups and downs of randomly matching drivers and horns.

https://electrovoice.com/media/downloads/ev_pabible-17-add16-mismatching_drivers_and_horns-1986.pdf

** Which are not paragons (no pun intended) of superb design or execution -- but they are nice.

 

[Chris A]

...Secondly, he's dead right, horns do have a small sweet spot because they are very directional. This means that at Shows where many seats are set up for listeners (and potential customers) the exhibitor has a real dilemma. Does he set them up for best sound - for the guy in the centre front seat? Or does he deliberately compromise this ideal and set them up so that all listeners get an idea of the sound, yet no one gets the full benefit? I've personally been in this position when I loaned my horn speakers to a tube amp manufacturer at a UK show. We took the compromise route by facing the speakers far more directly forward than they would be if installed in your home. Despite this, many visitors commented that this combo of tube amps and speakers produced the best sound in how...

I think this is where Bjorn was talking about the difference between good horns and older, more poorly performing horns. Here is a normalized horizontal polar sonogram of the high frequency horns that I use in the front three loudspeakers in my listening room:

These horns perform better than any direct radiating cone/dome loudspeaker that I've seen or heard before. What's different about these type of horns is that the throat areas are not curved--but straight, and the mouth termination is typically tractrix rollout to 90 degrees. You can walk from side-wall to side-wall in my listening room and not hear any real differences in timbre or sound quality. This is something that even planar dipoles can't do.

Because horns are so directional, they offer big advantages as well as a disadvantage. The disadvantage, as suggested above, is a small sweet spot so ideal for you to listen on your own leaving any other listeners with good but not best sound.

So there is no "sweet spot" that you talk about, other than the limitations brought by stereo itself, and which is completely mitigated by a 5.1 array setup, in which you can stand, sit, and walk around and hear the musicians playing as if they were playing live in-room:

The advantages are that well set-up horns will deliver the best (of all types of speaker) imaging - the ability of the listener to close his eyes and be able to point unambiguously at each instrument and vocalist at the original performance as if he is sitting in the best seat at that performance. That's a pretty good test and is overwhelmingly won by horns, with perhaps electrostatics next and omnis last and the best of conventional box speakers somewhere between.

The other huge advantage that horns offer is their tolerance of room anomalies. With most speakers, you need to place them x ft from the wall behind them and well away from side walls if you want their best sound. Horns, being so directional ignore the proximity of walls or other obstacles - but they still need precise positioning in terms of toe-in, distance from listener, perhaps tilt for optimum sound. Get these things right and I challenge any other type of speaker to deliver the degree of excitement and detail that you get from the original live version of the performance you are listening to.

Perhaps like the OP, I had seen fancy horn systems at shows and walked past them, even without listening to them - if they look that bonkers, the designer must be concentrating more on their looks than sound quality! It was only when I bought the speakers that I'd been hankering after for years, only to be seriously disappointed (these were ATC Active 50s), that I seriously started research mainly via Stereophile that I was then (2002) subscribing to. I read Robert Deutsch's excellent and highlly descriptive review of the Avanthgarde Uno speaker that I'd noticed had recently picked up their "Speaker of the Year" award. Robert described EXACTLY the sound that I was looking for and so different from the ATCs. After a 10 minute demo in a grubby London basement showroom, I was convinced and bought a pair. 17 years later, I upgraded (after an unsatisfactory excursion into electrostatics) to Duos and more recently into the Duo XDs I currently own.

It's the type of horns used in your mentioned loudspeaker brand that are of the "old design" and that have serious polar coverage issues. I certainly wouldn't use those as a reference in terms of sound quality in-room.

I'll grant you there are lots of pretty poor horn or "honky" speakers around, but that's largely because these are at the cheaper end of the market. The best horns are unrivalled in their ability to recreate the original performance with startling detail and accuracy. I hope the OP will look again at the pros (and cons) of horn speakers and arrange a proper demo.

PS - With sensitivities of 100+ dB, only a handful of watts are required, so no massive outlay on monstrous power amps is needed. I use a first-class Class D amp after previously using SETs.

Yes. It's just that many people believe that they know which horns perform well or poorly based on "testimonials", and that are not representing ground truth. I rather like listening to them and walking around the listening area to hear how well they actually perform.

If you're ever in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, drop in for a listen.

Chris