Hifiman Edition XS

[A Surfer]

I've better things to do than waste my time to deal with toxic people like you. Learn from Veri about how to react on something on which you disagree.

I actually know how, and in over 12 000 posts at head-fi I think I exhausted my ability to deal with this type of subjective musing. Here I mercifully don't have to, I am allowed to openly say, rubbish, you can't hear the difference in properly implemented DACs that are audibly transparent. The onus isn't on me, I am not making the wild claim, you are. If you would like to offer your evidence for how DACs sound different, please, do so.

If all you have is the subjective "I trust my ears" stories, well, sorry I have had to listen to that for so many years I have grown tired of always having to diplomatically dance around the fact that such claims are ridiculous. I'm sorry if that is not how you feel people should react, and you absolutely have the right to feel that way, nonetheless, I will say it again, you can't hear the difference in properly implemented DACs. Prove me wrong.

 

[Rayman30]

Ananda Nano? Hmm another “Nanometer” thin diaphragm? Hifiman’s crack pot marketing never ceases to amaze.

HiFiMAN's ANANDA NANO Open-Back Headphones Feature Nanometer Thin Diaphragm: High-End Munich 2023

The long-awaited ANANDA NANO update features trickle-down technology including a nanometer thick diaphragm based on the reference SUSVARA headphones. Are they better than the Edition XS? We're going to find out soon enough.

www.ecoustics.com

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Ananda Nano? Hmm another “Nanometer” thin diaphragm? Hifiman’s crack pot marketing never ceases to amaze.

HiFiMAN's ANANDA NANO Open-Back Headphones Feature Nanometer Thin Diaphragm: High-End Munich 2023

The long-awaited ANANDA NANO update features trickle-down technology including a nanometer thick diaphragm based on the reference SUSVARA headphones. Are they better than the Edition XS? We're going to find out soon enough.

www.ecoustics.com

Your Avatar is of a Hifiman headphone, yet you are trashing them here (crack pot!?), make up your mind!
There are differences here.
- Original Ananda had twin magnet array, no stealth (Fazor if you like), very efficient at 110dB @ 33 ohms. Very easy to drive, but some found it a bit bright.
- The stealth version, got stealth magnets (doh!) and nano diaphragm. Sensitivity was 103dB @ 27 ohms, still very easy to drive.
- The Nano, is now at 94dB @ 14 ohms, so harder to drive, but lighter. I assume it has a single magnet array. Should have a warmer sound (guessing), looks good too.
And the price has not changed! So they are not money grabbers. Just improving the same product or offering different flavours for same money.
I congratulate them.

 

[Rayman30]

Your Avatar is of a Hifiman headphone, yet you are trashing them here (crack pot!?), make up your mind!
There are differences here.
- Original Ananda had twin magnet array, no stealth (Fazor if you like), very efficient at 110dB @ 33 ohms. Very easy to drive, but some found it a bit bright.
- The stealth version, got stealth magnets (doh!) and nano diaphragm. Sensitivity was 103dB @ 27 ohms, still very easy to drive.
- The Nano, is now at 94dB @ 14 ohms, so harder to drive, but lighter. I assume it has a single magnet array. Should have a warmer sound (guessing), looks good too.
And the price has not changed! So they are not money grabbers. Just improving the same product or offering different flavours for same money.
I congratulate them.

False dichotomy straight away, my opinion of their marketing has nothing to do with my appreciation of their headphones. I am genuinely frustrated with how vague their marketing is, I do want them to explain and delineate their product line, I’ve heard almost every Hifiman product, I am being genuine here.

The rest of your regurgitation of marketing drivel and specs are of no value to me, nothing I can’t read from a spec sheet. Stealth magnet bla bla! do you have a formal training to where you can actually explain this from a scientific and objective perspective? yeah well me neither.

I loved my original Ananda, I may even buy these! but I am not an audio engineer, I need more than hyperbolic marketing buzz words to spend hundreds of dollars for another headphone.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

The rest of your regurgitation of marketing drivel is of no value to me, nothing I can’t get from a spec sheet. Stealth magnet bla bla! do you have a formal training to where you can actually explain this from a scientific and objective perspective? yeah well me neither.

I could, but I doubt you'd be interested.
The Stealth, Fazor and Flow management are all similar, and three different manufacturers (mentioned here ) have come to implement them, but it is blah blah to you. Good luck on your possible new purchase.
Why all the hostility?

 

[Andrez]

Hey everyone, I saw there was some talk on impedence and amps. I just got my first pair of headphones (Edition XS) and connected them to my pc, which should have a good enough amp in the motherboard. They sound good, even though I have to get used to the different bass than what I'm usually used to listen to other consumer headhphones like Sony WH 1000 XM4 for example, and volume is loud enough when almost maxed out in windows.
Now I've got a doubt. We've got an old Yamaha RX-V650 in the living room, which is connected to a dolby surround setup, and tried connecting the headphones into the phone jack. I noticed you can raise the volume to much higher volumes now. I handled them to my father to try them, and he immediately raised the volume quite a lot, and told me 'they immediately distort the sound, while the big speakers around the room do not', which made me pretty sad knowing I spent quite a bit of money to buy this.
Now, I didn't know what to reply, but apparently headphones are not meant to be listened to at such a high volume (a part from the obvious hearing loss reasons). So, is it normal for the sound to become distorted at a certain db level?
I turned it down pretty quickly and used it with my pc and didn't notice any difference from before. But now, having found out that too much power can 'fry' or damage the headphone, I'm a little worried. Any help?
Thanks

 

[mr.at]

Hey everyone, I saw there was some talk on impedence and amps. I just got my first pair of headphones (Edition XS) and connected them to my pc, which should have a good enough amp in the motherboard. They sound good, even though I have to get used to the different bass than what I'm usually used to listen to other consumer headhphones like Sony WH 1000 XM4 for example, and volume is loud enough when almost maxed out in windows.
Now I've got a doubt. We've got an old Yamaha RX-V650 in the living room, which is connected to a dolby surround setup, and tried connecting the headphones into the phone jack. I noticed you can raise the volume to much higher volumes now. I handled them to my father to try them, and he immediately raised the volume quite a lot, and told me 'they immediately distort the sound, while the big speakers around the room do not', which made me pretty sad knowing I spent quite a bit of money to buy this.
Now, I didn't know what to reply, but apparently headphones are not meant to be listened to at such a high volume (a part from the obvious hearing loss reasons). So, is it normal for the sound to become distorted at a certain db level?
I turned it down pretty quickly and used it with my pc and didn't notice any difference from before. But now, having found out that too much power can 'fry' or damage the headphone, I'm a little worried. Any help?
Thanks

Hi. I'm not a pro at this myself but I will throw in some opinions.

Lounder is not the same as adequate power.
Right off the bat I will tell you that neither of the sources you're using are powerful enough for the XS. Now don't get me wrong, you CAN run them off a phone even, or a beginner amp, and they will sound adequate. But to really push them, you need a good and powerful amp. A $100 or maybe even a $200ish amp maybe also struggle.

When you listen via your PC, you're listening at beginner's requirement. Your PC can power them only so far, but may not take them to distortion levels.

The AV receiver... I have one Yamaha AVR myself. It's not the XS that's distorting. It's the amp that's maxing out. Your receiver's headphones out can't keep up with the power required to pump the XS. Also, distortion numbers are usually crazy on AVRs. On speakers, it may go a bit unnoticed. But on something so close and intimate as headphones, it becomes abundantly clear as to what's going on. Headphone amps are always with much lower distortion, in general.

Stereo Hi-Fi amps may be another story, but still, the point of headphones amplifiers in particular is to have much less audible distortion and noise floor [because of being tailored to headphones].

I have a very good headphones amp with, an IFI microDSD. Even that begins to clip with the XS.

Now the SMSL SH-9 is one that can run my XS adequately and powerfully. People may argue that even that is not enough, but that's another discussion.

So, basically, you're going to need a good damn amp here. AVRs are the last thing one should rely on to run normal headphones, let alone planar magnetic headphones, especially as inefficient as Hifimans.

Also, you may believe your headphones out on your motherboard or an added soundcard etc may be good enough. Where otherboard and soundcard audio solutions top out, that's where dedicated external audio DACs and Amps start. So there. An integrated or a PC internal solution is nowhere close to a dedicated system.

Hope this helps.

 

[Andrez]

Hi. I'm not a pro at this myself but I will throw in some opinions.

Lounder is not the same as adequate power.
Right off the bat I will tell you that neither of the sources you're using are powerful enough for the XS. Now don't get me wrong, you CAN run them off a phone even, or a beginner amp, and they will sound adequate. But to really push them, you need a good and powerful amp. A $100 or maybe even a $200ish amp maybe also struggle.

When you listen via your PC, you're listening at beginner's requirement. Your PC can power them only so far, but may not take them to distortion levels.

The AV receiver... I have one Yamaha AVR myself. It's not the XS that's distorting. It's the amp that's maxing out. Your receiver's headphones out can't keep up with the power required to pump the XS. Also, distortion numbers are usually crazy on AVRs. On speakers, it may go a bit unnoticed. But on something so close and intimate as headphones, it becomes abundantly clear as to what's going on. Headphone amps are always with much lower distortion, in general.

Stereo Hi-Fi amps may be another story, but still, the point of headphones amplifiers in particular is to have much less audible distortion and noise floor [because of being tailored to headphones].

I have a very good headphones amp with, an IFI microDSD. Even that begins to clip with the XS.

Now the SMSL SH-9 is one that can run my XS adequately and powerfully. People may argue that even that is not enough, but that's another discussion.

So, basically, you're going to need a good damn amp here. AVRs are the last thing one should rely on to run normal headphones, let alone planar magnetic headphones, especially as inefficient as Hifimans.

Also, you may believe your headphones out on your motherboard or an added soundcard etc may be good enough. Where otherboard and soundcard audio solutions top out, that's where dedicated external audio DACs and Amps start. So there. Interested or PC internal solution is nowhere close to a dedicated system.

Hope this helps.

Hey, thanks for the super fast reply!
Ok so, there' a lot more I'm willing to ask now

First off, how can you know if that AVR has or has not enough power to adequately power the XS in this case? I checked the specification (found this: https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/rx-v650.shtml) and not sure where to find how much power it outputs for headphones. Also, no idea if that distortion level of 0.06% counts for something.

Other than that, you think that raising the volume to distortion levels for some seconds could have damaged it? From what I understood from your message, loud volume using this AVR is different than a loud volume using a good amp (like yours f.e.)? I thought that if there's, let's say 100db, coming out of the headphone, then the power that's going through them is always the same, no matter the source/amp? Maybe you can clarify this for me a little more...

Lastly, I think they sound loud enough on my motherboard, and I read many people saying that if it's loud enough, then you don't really need an extra amp/dac. Am I missing something? Isn't the amp only needed if volume is too low, since it shouldn't change the sound? What do you mean by really pushing them with a powerful amp, considering that I don't want to play them at higher volumes?

Thanks again!

 

[mr.at]

Hey, thanks for the super fast reply!
Ok so, there' a lot more I'm willing to ask now

First off, how can you know if that AVR has or has not enough power to adequately power the XS in this case? I checked the specification (found this: https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/yamaha/rx-v650.shtml) and not sure where to find how much power it outputs for headphones. Also, no idea if that distortion level of 0.06% counts for something.

Other than that, you think that raising the volume to distortion levels for some seconds could have damaged it? From what I understood from your message, loud volume using this AVR is different than a loud volume using a good amp (like yours f.e.)? I thought that if there's, let's say 100db, coming out of the headphone, then the power that's going through them is always the same, no matter the source/amp? Maybe you can clarify this for me a little more...

Lastly, I think they sound loud enough on my motherboard, and I read many people saying that if it's loud enough, then you don't really need an extra amp/dac. Am I missing something? Isn't the amp only needed if volume is too low, since it shouldn't change the sound? What do you mean by really pushing them with a powerful amp, considering that I don't want to play them at higher volumes?

Thanks again!

So my AVR is the Yamaha 7790.

The loudness and the quality of it are two different things. A transducer/speaker may get loud at different levels at different frequencies. Usually for these Hifimans, and well, for all headphones and speakers really, the impedance changes in the low-end. That's when they really draw power from the amp. Amps usually come apart at that point. You may hear it loud, maybe even louder than expected compared to another, but the quality will not be the same. Yes you can get it ear piercing but the quality may be downright crap. That's the distortion, as it's playing mids and highs louder than lows.

PC audio solutions are fair. For lower impedance and higher sensitivity cans, they work acceptably. Even for your XS, it may run satisfactorily. That's fine, there's no issues there. Usually these integrated amp chips are designed to get loud enough to avoid any distortion. A good amp would clip first rather than keep going louder and give us the undesired gift of distortion. That's what AVRs do. AVRs are designed in mind just to offer an optional feature to be able to plugin headphones, but never an actual desired solution. What was fine 15 years ago is no longer desirable. Not with headphones of the class that you have.

You would definitely need an amp if you want to go any louder than what levels you're at. If you're satisfied with your PC solution, there's no reason to upgrade really. It's just that these headphones can scale higher if you desire, and you should consider something more viable to actually hear what it can sound like.

I don't believe you may have damaged your headphones in any way. Output via headphones out on AVRs is never as powerful as to damage normal headphones, so surely never something as an XS.

Lastly, amps do change sound. Normal amps definitely do. Some newer products like THX amps don't. Nor do most of the other SMSL or Topping NFCA amps. O2 Objective won't either, nor would some good JDS Labs amps. Then there's FiiOs, Schitts... It's a whole another world, not sure how far you're informed on these products. Tube amps change the sound, they add distortion that people like. I'm not much educated on that though I've never properly tried tube amps.

But for planars people usually go for solid state anyhow.

You should look around and try some proper headphones amp with your XS to see if it is something you want, or might need. But not AVRs.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

Hey everyone, I saw there was some talk on impedence and amps. I just got my first pair of headphones (Edition XS) and connected them to my pc, which should have a good enough amp in the motherboard. They sound good, even though I have to get used to the different bass than what I'm usually used to listen to other consumer headhphones like Sony WH 1000 XM4 for example, and volume is loud enough when almost maxed out in windows.
Now I've got a doubt. We've got an old Yamaha RX-V650 in the living room, which is connected to a dolby surround setup, and tried connecting the headphones into the phone jack. I noticed you can raise the volume to much higher volumes now. I handled them to my father to try them, and he immediately raised the volume quite a lot, and told me 'they immediately distort the sound, while the big speakers around the room do not', which made me pretty sad knowing I spent quite a bit of money to buy this.
Now, I didn't know what to reply, but apparently headphones are not meant to be listened to at such a high volume (a part from the obvious hearing loss reasons). So, is it normal for the sound to become distorted at a certain db level?
I turned it down pretty quickly and used it with my pc and didn't notice any difference from before. But now, having found out that too much power can 'fry' or damage the headphone, I'm a little worried. Any help?
Thanks

Here is my 2 pence:
- The EDXS is a wonderful pair of headphones, you have done well getting them (pat yourself on the back!)
As mentioned before, the EDXS need a clean 500mW to 1W of power to go very loud, very good, very undistorted. It seems neither of your amps are up to the task. They either don't have the power, or they are not Clean enough!
Your Yamaha has two separate sections. one feeds the line level to your AV amp, another to power the headphone jack. The one that powers the headphone jack gets distorted at higher levels. I am saying it is not the headphones, but the amp that feeds it.
Get a decent headphone amp (price is irrelevant if you choose wisely), and you would be golden.
Better still, get an external decent DAC/amp. the EDXS deserve the cleanest signals.

 

[JediMa]

Yes you need definitely a dedicated good amp, no distortion and the right power. A JDS atom could be good and cheap (it's a little beast) but since I replaced it with a Topping L50 they EDXS sound as they should. There are many options in the 100 - 200 range and you can find great tests and reviews on this forum.
P.s. well done with EDXS they are fantastic headphones!!

 

[Andrez]

So my AVR is the Yamaha 7790.

The loudness and the quality of it are two different things. A transducer/speaker may get loud at different levels at different frequencies. Usually for these Hifimans, and well, for all headphones and speakers really, the impedance changes in the low-end. That's when they really draw power from the amp. Amps usually come apart at that point. You may hear it loud, maybe even louder than expected compared to another, but the quality will not be the same. Yes you can get it ear piercing but the quality may be downright crap. That's the distortion, as it's playing mids and highs louder than lows.

PC audio solutions are fair. For lower impedance and higher sensitivity cans, they work acceptably. Even for your XS, it may run satisfactorily. That's fine, there's no issues there. Usually these integrated amp chips are designed to get loud enough to avoid any distortion. A good amp would clip first rather than keep going louder and give us the undesired gift of distortion. That's what AVRs do. AVRs are designed in mind just to offer an optional feature to be able to plugin headphones, but never an actual desired solution. What was fine 15 years ago is no longer desirable. Not with headphones of the class that you have.

You would definitely need an amp if you want to go any louder than what levels you're at. If you're satisfied with your PC solution, there's no reason to upgrade really. It's just that these headphones can scale higher if you desire, and you should consider something more viable to actually hear what it can sound like.

I don't believe you may have damaged your headphones in any way. Output via headphones out on AVRs is never as powerful as to damage normal headphones, so surely never something as an XS.

Lastly, amps do change sound. Normal amps definitely do. Some newer products like THX amps don't. Nor do most of the other SMSL or Topping NFCA amps. O2 Objective won't either, nor would some good JDS Labs amps. Then there's FiiOs, Schitts... It's a whole another world, not sure how far you're informed on these products. Tube amps change the sound, they add distortion that people like. I'm not much educated on that though I've never properly tried tube amps.

But for planars people usually go for solid state anyhow.

You should look around and try some proper headphones amp with your XS to see if it is something you want, or might need. But not AVRs.

Hey, thanks for the explanation!
Ok so what I understood from your message is that using it with my on board dac/amp tech (to be specific it has: "AMP-UP Audio with ALC1220-VB and WIMA Capacitors for Rear 120dB SNR") is enough. Only real benefit in getting in amp would be if I wanted to listen to it with a higher volume, and maybe a little better clarity? Also, I'm not sure how much I could raise it, since I'm worried it could damage my ears in the long run (I feel I can still hear quite well ). Maybe I should try to go to some shops and bring my headphones and see if they will let me test it, or just get one from amazon and send it back if it's not worth it..

Here is my 2 pence:
- The EDXS is a wonderful pair of headphones, you have done well getting them (pat yourself on the back!)
As mentioned before, the EDXS need a clean 500mW to 1W of power to go very loud, very good, very undistorted. It seems neither of your amps are up to the task. They either don't have the power, or they are not Clean enough!
Your Yamaha has two separate sections. one feeds the line level to your AV amp, another to power the headphone jack. The one that powers the headphone jack gets distorted at higher levels. I am saying it is not the headphones, but the amp that feeds it.
Get a decent headphone amp (price is irrelevant if you choose wisely), and you would be golden.
Better still, get an external decent DAC/amp. the EDXS deserve the cleanest signals.

Thanks! I'm proud of them, I'm treating them like a baby. Earlier in this message I included the specs on the motherboard amp-up, maybe that could tell you something about the quality, or if a amp/dac solution would still be much better . And yeah I guess the AV isn't the best solution to test them, better stick to PC for the moment.

Yes you need definitely a dedicated good amp, no distortion and the right power. A JDS atom could be good and cheap (it's a little beast) but since I replaced it with a Topping L50 they EDXS sound as they should. There are many options in the 100 - 200 range and you can find great tests and reviews on this forum.
P.s. well done with EDXS they are fantastic headphones!!

Thanks for the tip Jedi! Jds atom looks cool, still not sure how much of a difference it could make, but I'm definitely more curious every day.


Also, for everyone that has/had a pair of Hifiman EDXS or similar, I noticed the other day there was a strange 'bump' in the metal/plastic stuff under the earpads, I guess where the jacks connect. I took some pictures. It definitely looks like poor assembly to me, even though I asked on reddit before and people told me they also have that on theirs.
Edit: I contacted Hifiman support and showed these pics and they asked me where I'm located to see what they could do for me. Only thing is that I bought the EDXS new on Ebay from a third seller (not sure if authorised), so I don't know if they could RMA them in case.
I'll post the link to the pics:

https://imgur.com/a/uNlw1wY

Thanks again guys, the more I ask, the more questions I have, so your replies are alwasy MUCH appreciated

 

[mr.at]

Hey, thanks for the explanation!
Ok so what I understood from your message is that using it with my on board dac/amp tech (to be specific it has: "AMP-UP Audio with ALC1220-VB and WIMA Capacitors for Rear 120dB SNR") is enough. Only real benefit in getting in amp would be if I wanted to listen to it with a higher volume, and maybe a little better clarity? Also, I'm not sure how much I could raise it, since I'm worried it could damage my ears in the long run (I feel I can still hear quite well ). Maybe I should try to go to some shops and bring my headphones and see if they will let me test it, or just get one from amazon and send it back if it's not worth it..



Thanks! I'm proud of them, I'm treating them like a baby. Earlier in this message I included the specs on the motherboard amp-up, maybe that could tell you something about the quality, or if a amp/dac solution would still be much better . And yeah I guess the AV isn't the best solution to test them, better stick to PC for the moment.




Thanks for the tip Jedi! Jds atom looks cool, still not sure how much of a difference it could make, but I'm definitely more curious every day.


Also, for everyone that has/had a pair of Hifiman EDXS or similar, I noticed the other day there was a strange 'bump' in the metal/plastic stuff under the earpads, I guess where the jacks connect. I took some pictures. It definitely looks like poor assembly to me, even though I asked on reddit before and people told me they also have that on theirs. I'll post the link to the pics:

https://imgur.com/a/uNlw1wY

Thanks again guys, the more I ask, the more questions I have, so your replies are alwasy MUCH appreciated

Hey man. Yes these bumps are just by design. The connector is squeezed in like this to keep it in place as it's not affixed in any way otherwise.

Far as your internal PC amp is concerned, I'd say it's decent enough. There's no need for you to upgrade this, only if you have spare cash down the road and feel you want more should you upgrade. So in your case, it may be desired but isn't required.

Yes, normally, people like to have more power in an amplifier. No one tops out the volume. Say an amplifier can go full loud on full knob tilt and high gain, but still we'd use it at half the volume, and at low gain. That's what everyone aims for. If you have to max out any given amp, it means it lacks power. No one wants to max an amp out. You'd always want there to be power still leftover on the amp.

You'd never want to always top out all the time.
Also, any given amp will have the maximum amount of distortion [relative to it's own capacity and specifications] at max output [and gain]. That - is the decision factor of an amp upgrade.

Regardless, if you're satisfied with the results, and you don't max it out yet still and the current levels of your 'knob' are adequate, it's fine.

CAR ANALOGY:

Think of a sportscar. If you're an enthusiast, yes, you'd want it to be able to have a top speed of 200MPH, provided you drive on the highway. Now you're not always driving at 200MPH. You're at a 100, sometimes go to 140, but you know the engine can still take it and go higher.

Now if you're a Le Mans racecar driver, you know that on some lengths, you can, and you do want to reach over 230MPH too. So there, your 200MPH car is simply not gonna cut it as you'll be having your engine always be reaching it's 200MPH limit, and even then there's some more power left to be desired. So now you do need a super or a hyper sportscar. Since you'll be going to even 250MPH, you now need a car that's doesn't top out at 250MPH but rather reaches even 280MPH. You again need a spec higher than you'd actually be going.

So, in short, almost always, you want to stay much lower than the maximum output.

Hope this helps!

 

[Andrez]

Ok thanks for reassuring me about the connectors
So if I understood correctly, having my volume at 80/90% on windows means that I'm close to the maximum the onboard amp can drive my headphones, and that also means that, being close to 100%, it has more distortion than if I was using it at, let's say, 50%, right?

About this analogy:

Now if you're a Le Mans racecar driver, you know that on some lengths, you can, and you do want to reach over 230MPH too. So there, your 200MPH car is simply not gonna cut it as you'll be having your engine always be reaching it's 200MPH limit, and even then there's some more power left to be desired. So now you do need a super or a hyper sportscar. Since you'll be going to even 250MPH, you now need a car that's doesn't top out at 250MPH but rather reaches even 280MPH. You again need a spec higher than you'd actually be going.

It makes sense that you'd always prefer to have some margin... but I still don't quite get what a 'le mans driver', so a very high end audiophile, would use all those 250mph for. Does it really need all that speed (volume)? Doesn't his ears hurt? Of course you would need a powerful amp if your headphones had a very high impedance, but considering using the same pair as mine, I can't really comprehend what other benefit would he get. DIstortion is the main one I can get.

Thanks again for bearing with me

 

[mr.at]

Ok thanks for reassuring me about the connectors
So if I understood correctly, having my volume at 80/90% on windows means that I'm close to the maximum the onboard amp can drive my headphones, and that also means that, being close to 100%, it has more distortion than if I was using it at, let's say, 50%, right?

About this analogy:


It makes sense that you'd always prefer to have some margin... but I still don't quite get what a 'le mans driver', so a very high end audiophile, would use all those 250mph for. Does it really need all that speed (volume)? Doesn't his ears hurt? Of course you would need a powerful amp if your headphones had a very high impedance, but considering using the same pair as mine, I can't really comprehend what other benefit would he get. DIstortion is the main one I can get.

Thanks again for bearing with me

No, audiophile enthusiasts don't listen at loud volumes. It's just reassuring to them that they have plenty of power on hand. As much as they may be hunting for power when buying an amp, they may at best be using it 20-30% actual capacity. Also, often at that class, you want to have quite a powerful amp that can work well with as many headphones as you have in your collection. And they don't want to start looking for another amplifier when they get their next headphones.

And headphones do scale with amplifiers.

Basically, the more power an amp has, the more effortless it pushes the headphones. The better control. There's many things that come in to play. Even at very low volumes, you can feel the amplifier not lagging behind in bass reproduction. The amp can deal with sudden impedance spikes in the low end. Like I've heard that an HD650 has even higher impedance figures in lower frequencies. So a powerful amp can handle such behaviors of headphones.

 

[A Surfer]

No, audiophile enthusiasts don't listen at loud volumes. It's just reassuring to them that they have plenty of power on hand. As much as they may be hunting for power when buying an amp, they may at best be using it 20-30% actual capacity. Also, often at that class, you want to have quite a powerful amp that can work well with as many headphones as you have in your collection. And they don't want to start looking for another amplifier when they get their next headphones.

And headphones do scale with amplifiers.

Basically, the more power an amp has, the more effortless it pushes the headphones. The better control. There's many things that come in to play. Even at very low volumes, you can feel the amplifier not lagging behind in bass reproduction. The amp can deal with sudden impedance spikes in the low end. Like I've heard that an HD650 has even higher impedance figures in lower frequencies. So a powerful amp can handle such behaviors of headphones.

That is not accurate, certainly not as a rule. As long as an amplifier can produce enough power for the loudest dynamic peak, and without audible distortion, any unused power is just that unused. The idea that having power reserve just sitting there helps is a myth. Yes, it makes practical sense to have some reserve headroom available, but really, enough clean power is what the load is demanding from the amplifier. And of course it does differ with the load, for example planar magnetic designs should typically exhibit very flat frequency response impedance curves whereas a dynamic driver certainly less so.

May I ask how it is that you know that no audiophile enthusiasts listen at loud playback volume?

 

[mr.at]

That is not accurate, certainly not as a rule. As long as an amplifier can produce enough power for the loudest dynamic peak, and without audible distortion, any unused power is just that unused. The idea that having power reserve just sitting there helps is a myth. Yes, it makes practical sense to have some reserve headroom available, but really, enough clean power is what the load is demanding from the amplifier. And of course it does differ with the load, for example planar magnetic designs should typically exhibit very flat frequency response impedance curves whereas a dynamic driver certainly less so.

May I ask how it is that you know that no audiophile enthusiasts listen at loud playback volume?

Hi. Yes ok, so firstly, I've been to a couple of headphones meets, I got the sense from most folks who use high-end gear, that despite the fact they're looking for high end and high power, they all listened to volumes much lower than myself (I don't call myself an audiophile as I'm more of a music addicted, a melomaniac, if you will). It's a perception, I could be wrong. Now I didn't evaluate the fact that some folks are using very demanding headphones, so course there you push the amp, but I felt just at about the same overall loudness that they would listen to efficient cans at.

For the amp power suggestion, I've always seen amplifiers getting more distortion at higher volumes, at least on paper. So I'm just suggesting it as such. The noise floor may also climb up as you approach the limits of an amp.

Now given his XS, he can find plenty of decent options. But again, since I've noticed my own if microDSD give in (maybe it doesn't hold up to more recent standards), but that amp is like 6W a channel, yet I can feel it give in. That was a $500 dacamp.

Again, maybe my amp has aged, hence my perception. Or maybe the XS could still use a very good amp.

 

[Ken Tajalli]

That is not accurate, certainly not as a rule. As long as an amplifier can produce enough power for the loudest dynamic peak, and without audible distortion,

That means an amp at probably (at most) 90% of its rated power. rule of thumb!

any unused power is just that unused.

Not if it is a single ended amp.
Not common, but possible. Extra power goes up in heat.

The idea that having power reserve just sitting there helps is a myth.

Yes, it makes practical sense to have some reserve headroom available, but really, enough clean power is what the load is demanding from the amplifier.

True, but many amps can be clean only a fraction of their power. Bad ones, that some people call Esoteric .

And of course it does differ with the load, for example planar magnetic designs should typically exhibit very flat frequency response impedance curves whereas a dynamic driver certainly less.

True.

 

[A Surfer]

Hi. Yes ok, so firstly, I've been to a couple of headphones meets, I got the sense from most folks who use high-end gear, that despite the fact they're looking for high end and high power, they all listened to volumes much lower than myself (I don't call myself an audiophile as I'm more of a music addicted, a melomaniac, if you will). It's a perception, I could be wrong. Now I didn't evaluate the fact that some folks are using very demanding headphones, so course there you push the amp, but I felt just at about the same overall loudness that they would listen to efficient cans at.

For the amp power suggestion, I've always seen amplifiers getting more distortion at higher volumes, at least on paper. So I'm just suggesting it as such. The noise floor may also climb up as you approach the limits of an amp.

Now given his XS, he can find plenty of decent options. But again, since I've noticed my own if microDSD give in (maybe it doesn't hold up to more recent standards), but that amp is like 6W a channel, yet I can feel it give in. That was a $500 dacamp.

Again, maybe my amp has aged, hence my perception. Or maybe the XS could still use a very good amp.

Again, that depends, but yes it can be the case that a load is so mismatched to the amplifier that the amplifier is pushed past it's ability to keep distortion products below audible thresholds. Notice that I said if you already have an amplifier that plays free of audible distortion and can do so handling the loudest dynamic peaks in the music, in such a case it wouldn't matter if you have 300 hundred watts left of untapped headroom, it will not make the fidelity of the output waveform better. That is just a myth. If the user is smart enough to source properly matched gear to their listening style, then just enough power is enough power. You won't benefit from magic, unused power reserves.

I am not saying that you don't need headroom, clearly having some reasonable headroom capacity is only common sense, but that is to handle unplanned for dynamic peak demands, not to make the amp sound better. Yes you can have a perfect storm of poorly matched gear such as a dynamic headphone with a very uneven frequency impedance response such that it is much more demanding of an amplifier at certain frequencies. If at the same time the amplifier is not able to sustain clean power capable of meeting those demands, sure, it would be possible that the distortion could reach clipping levels. No argument there, but it isn't a given that an amplifier being pushed hard is going to clip. It would depend on the amplifier.

My response to your contention was informed by the myth that is constantly propagated on audio sites that having lots of unused power improves the sound audibly. That is clearly rubbish. Unused power will never effect the sound quality, because it is unused stored energy potential. May I ask how you know that your iFi device is "giving in"? What do you mean by that? What specifically does it do or not do when it gives in?

 

[mr.at]

Again, that depends, but yes it can be the case that a load is so mismatched to the amplifier that the amplifier is pushed past it's ability to keep distortion products below audible thresholds. Notice that I said if you already have an amplifier that plays free of audible distortion and can do so handling the loudest dynamic peaks in the music, in such a case it wouldn't matter if you have 300 hundred watts left of untapped headroom, it will not make the fidelity of the output waveform better. That is just a myth. If the user is smart enough to source properly matched gear to their listening style, then just enough power is enough power. You won't benefit from magic, unused power reserves.

I am not saying that you don't need headroom, clearly having some reasonable headroom capacity is only common sense, but that is to handle unplanned for dynamic peak demands, not to make the amp sound better. Yes you can have a perfect storm of poorly matched gear such as a dynamic headphone with a very uneven frequency impedance response such that it is much more demanding of an amplifier at certain frequencies. If at the same time the amplifier is not able to sustain clean power capable of meeting those demands, sure, it would be possible that the distortion could reach clipping levels. No argument there, but it isn't a given that an amplifier being pushed hard is going to clip. It would depend on the amplifier.

My response to your contention was informed by the myth that is constantly propagated on audio sites that having lots of unused power improves the sound audibly. That is clearly rubbish. Unused power will never effect the sound quality, because it is unused stored energy potential. May I ask how you know that your iFi device is "giving in"? What do you mean by that? What specifically does it do or not do when it gives in?

Yes my thoughts are only a guidance.
By giving it, I mean that it clips. Very bad clipping. It means the XS scales pretty well with more powerful amps, yet amps can come apart if they lack in power.
I've witnessed the same impedance fluctuation in the XS, where most to all of the clipping is because of the low end.