Hifiman Edition XS - poor highs?

[solderdude]

Need to update my last post because I've learned something new about unit variation.
I listened to two Arya Stealths, and even though one unit had only been used for a few hours, it made a difference.

Audio-memory is poor.

I never believed in burn-in, but it turns out it's not just a placebo.

Have you seen measurements that say it is so ?
Have you ruled out pad condition ?
Did you conclude this because you are sure you heard this (and assume audio memory is a good way to gauge this) ?

I also know that headphones undergo a burn-in phase at the factory, so is it possible that there could be a difference even right out of the box.

Drivers are shortly tested, I would not call this a burn-in but rather functional check or characterizing (for matching purposes)

To really confirm unit variation, I think you would need to compare two fully burned-in units

When would you say a unit is burnt-in enough ?
How many copies of the same model (in the same production run ?) would you feel is required to get an accurate feel of production spread ?
What percentage would be outliers ?
What about different production runs, months or even years apart, would show differences ?

 

[Blockader]

Need to update my last post because I've learned something new about unit variation.
I listened to two Arya`s, and even though one unit had only been used for a few hours, it made a difference.
The difference sounded very similar to what I experienced with the XS.
I never believed in burn-in, but it turns out it's not just a placebo.
I also know that headphones undergo a burn-in phase at the factory, so it is possible that there could be a difference even right out of the box.
To really confirm unit variation, I think you would need to compare two fully burned-in units

Unit variation and burn-in are unrelated.

It's nearly impossible to make two diaphragms with identical Thiele-Small parameters. Finding drivers that behave very similarly to each other is a lengthy process, and most audio companies don't even attempt this, reserving such precision for their high-end headphones.

However, proper unit matching is the most important factor in determining the imaging precision of headphones, not in relation to the source, but in delivering a sense of accurate imaging.

 

[BZ22]

In direct back-and-forth comparison, the most noticeable difference was in soundstage.
The out-of-the-box Arya has a smaller stage and less depth.

Have you seen measurements that say it is so ?

I wouldn't know, how one could measure soundstage...
There are measurements from DMS and Custom Cans, and the biggest difference is in the low and high end.

Drivers are shortly tested, I would not call this a burn-in but rather functional check or characterizing (for matching purposes)

Audeze factory. At 1:10, it is mentioned that the headphones undergo a 24-48 hour burn-in phase.
No idea if this is also the case with other manufacturers.

 

[solderdude]

In direct back-and-forth comparison, the most noticeable difference was in soundstage.
The out-of-the-box Arya has a smaller stage and less depth.

How do you hear headphone 'soundstage'

This poll is born out of a 'soundstage / imaging' discussion. I am just curious how people hear headphone 'soundstage'. Note this is with 'normal' recordings so NO binaural recordings and without any processing/plug-ins like crossfeed, stereo enhancers and 3D emulators. Just a plain...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I wouldn't know, how one could measure soundstage...
There are measurements from DMS and Custom Cans, and the biggest difference is in the low and high end.

You can't measure it, attempts have been made by Rtings but not very successful despite them claiming a good correlation.
There will be differences between the models, hard to tell how a change in tonal balance changes 'soundstage'.
Usually more treble or smoother treble response can affect 'detail retrieval' no idea how one's brain handles this (see survey)

Audeze factory. At 1:10, it is mentioned that the headphones undergo a 24-48 hour burn-in phase.
No idea if this is also the case with other manufacturers.

Burn-in in factories (mechanical and electronic devices) is usually done to lower failure rates in the field. Planar drivers have a higher failure rate than dynamic drivers and usually a faulty one shows errors in the first few days. The fact that they do burn-in tests does not mean it is needed for them to start sounding as they should and even if this was the case I am sure 48 hours would be enough otherwise they would do this much longer (some people let devices 'burn-in for 100's of hours thinking it is needed).

 

[NDRQ]

Need to update my last post because I've learned something new about unit variation.
I listened to two Arya`s, and even though one unit had only been used for a few hours, it made a difference.
The difference sounded very similar to what I experienced with the XS.
I never believed in burn-in, but it turns out it's not just a placebo.
I also know that headphones undergo a burn-in phase at the factory, so it is possible that there could be a difference even right out of the box.
To really confirm unit variation, I think you would need to compare two fully burned-in units

There is close to zero effect of burn in with dynamic drivers and absolutely no burn in effect with planars, stop this bllshit. Meanwhile unit variation is a thing, especially with Hifiman, because they have really mediocre/garbage quality control. After some use, the compressed pads can also make some difference, but far from nifght and day.

 

[BZ22]

There is close to zero effect of burn in with dynamic drivers and absolutely no burn in effect with planars, stop this bllshit. Meanwhile unit variation is a thing, especially with Hifiman, because they have really mediocre/garbage quality control. After some use, the compressed pads can also make some difference, but far from nifght and day.

When I heard the second pair of Aryas out of the box, my very first thought was, "They sound exactly like my first Aryas out of the box."
Pads are a very good point, but I'm not sure if it's just the pads
Just to clarify, of course, I'm not talking about a night-and-day difference—both still sound like the same model, haha
As already mentioned, there are measurements, like those from Custom Cans or DMS
But I'll try to be as cautious as possible with this topic.

I've read many times from Arya owners that after a certain break-in period, there's more low-end, smoother treble, and the soundstage and depth expand.
I never believed it until I experienced the exact same thing myself.
But it could really be the pads or just a mix of the pads and the break-in period

 

[Mr Vinyl]

When I heard the second pair of Aryas out of the box, my very first thought was, "They sound exactly like my first Aryas out of the box."
Pads are a very good point, but I'm not sure if it's just the pads
Just to clarify, of course, I'm not talking about a night-and-day difference—both still sound like the same model, haha
As already mentioned, there are measurements, like those from Custom Cans or DMS
But I'll try to be as cautious as possible with this topic.

I've read many times from Arya owners that after a certain break-in period, there's more low-end, smoother treble, and the soundstage and depth expand.
I never believed it until I experienced the exact same thing myself.
But it could really be the pads or just a mix of the pads and the break-in period

I can confirm - unscientifically - that a burn-in period is required by most audio equipment. Even my amp - not a tube amp - requires 15 minutes each time I turn it on to sound its best. When I got my Hifiman 400se, on first listen it had a boomy bass and highs that were way too smooth. I let it play at high volume with dynamic music for six hours, during which I avoided listening to them in order to avoid any brain burn-in. After the six hours, I noticed that the boomy bass decreased quite a bit and the highs started appearing. I let it burn for another six hours after which the boominess was gone, leaving a slight warmth around 200Hz. The highs were even better. At that point, I decided to stop the process and just leave whatever burn-in take its course under normal listening situations. Strangely, my Aune AR5000, a dynamic set, didn't change at all during the burn-in period.

 

[Doodski]

I can confirm - unscientifically - that a burn-in period is required by most audio equipment. Even my amp - not a tube amp - requires 15 minutes each time I turn it on to sound its best. When I got my Hifiman 400se, on first listen it had a boomy bass and highs that were way too smooth. I let it play at high volume with dynamic music for six hours, during which I avoided listening to them in order to avoid any brain burn-in. After the six hours, I noticed that the boomy bass decreased quite a bit and the highs started appearing. I let it burn for another six hours after which the boominess was gone, leaving a slight warmth around 200Hz. The highs were even better. At that point, I decided to stop the process and just leave whatever burn-in take its course under normal listening situations. Strangely, my Aune AR5000, a dynamic set, didn't change at all during the burn-in period.

uh huh... Not likely to happen to any noticeable degree and a human's brain has near zero memory for what sounds are from minute to minute never mind over a period of hours, days and weeks etc.

 

[Mr Vinyl]

uh huh... Not likely to happen to any noticeable degree and a human's brain has near zero memory for what sounds are from minute to minute never mind over a period of hours, days and weeks etc.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I've been working in audio production almost all of my adulthood. And most people I know can remember from decades ago. How do you think sound engineers (the good ones) from the 60s and 70s managed to get a consistent sound signature recording after recording, by looking at some graphs on their computer?

 

[Doodski]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I've been working in audio production almost all of my adulthood. And most people I know can remember from decades ago. How do you think sound engineers (the good ones) from the 60s and 70s managed to get a consistent sound signature recording after recording, by looking at some graphs on their computer?

Oh so you take the I'm a expert approach to an already deduced situation of human's having a very short hearing memory. Sorry to hear you are a expert that believes in decades of years of hearing memory... Just not possible.

 

[Mr Vinyl]

Oh so you take the I'm a expert approach to an already deduced situation of human's having a very short hearing memory. Sorry to hear you are a expert that believes in decades of years of hearing memory... Just not possible.

I never said I was an expert, but it seems that you are confirming that I might be exceptional

 

[Doodski]

I never said I was an expert, but it seems that you are confirming that I might be exceptional

LoL... Touche'. In all seriousness though hearing memory is too short for all humans for it to be of any effective use after even minutes of silence. A moment of silence between switching is required for proper analysis when ABing stuff via the ear.

 

[Mr Vinyl]

LoL... Touche'. In all seriousness though hearing memory is too short for all humans for it to be of any effective use after even minutes of silence. A moment of silence between switching is required for proper analysis when ABing stuff via the ear.

You're making a big deal out of nothing. I said that when I first heard the 400se, it was boomy and had no highs. I am particularly sensitive to both regions, but more so around the 200Hz. Audio memory or not, an elevation at 200Hz that makes you cringe doesn't just disappear due to 'perception'. It's the same thing with people who are sensitive to, say, 7Khz. It's not a faulty audio memory. It's real.

 

[Doodski]

You're making a big deal out of nothing. I said that when I first heard the 400se, it was boomy and had no highs. I am particularly sensitive to both regions, but more so around the 200Hz. Audio memory or not, an elevation at 200Hz that makes you cringe doesn't just disappear due to 'perception'. It's the same thing with people who are sensitive to, say, 7Khz. It's not a faulty audio memory. It's real.

Again... You can't remember a sound and then compare 6 hours later or days later or weeks... etc.. It is simply not possible. If you believe that you have golden ears that's on you.

 

[Mr Vinyl]

Again... You can't remember a sound and then compare 6 hours later or days later or weeks... etc.. It is simply not possible. If you believe that you have golden ears that's on you.

I never said I had golden ears. But thanks again for the flattery.