Hi fi, low volume

[earthtodan]

Hi all,
I live in a large apartment complex that was hastily built out of a few sheets of plywood and drywall in the 1960s. Over the past year-plus of working from home I've been getting by with my Grado headphones, but now my inner home audiophile is coming out of hibernation and trying to set up a system in my living room. Wanting to be a considerate tenant, my goal is to get a full range HiFi experience at low volumes. I've tried out a couple of different bookshelf speakers, but when I turn them down - which is almost all the time - the detail recedes into a muted muffle, and I'm back to my headphones again.

For background, my system consists of:
- Arcam P90 solid state amp
- Schiit Saga preamp (with analog volume control)
- Astell&Kern SP1000 DAP as my primary source, line level into the preamp (volume bypass)
- NHT C-3 bookshelf speakers (sold)
- Fritz Speakers Carrera bookshelves (currently demoing)

The room is 16'x16', symmetrical, and not well treated. The Fritz speakers sound good at normal listening levels, so I don't think they're the issue.

It's possible that my Grado SR325e headphones have trained my ears to expect something artificially forward and tinselly, but that doesn't explain it all.

Another aspect is that at daytime volumes - which most people would still consider low - the floor and the room amplify certain bass notes, so I'm stuck trying to adjust the volume down for the bass but up for the rest of the spectrum. I just ordered a miniDSP DDRC-22D to add room correction. But this doesn't explain it all either.

My next theory is that at the low levels I'm targeting, I need to apply a heavy dose of equal loudness curve. If this is the case, then it may be an insurmountable problem, as the EQ would have to vary continuously with the volume.

Anyone have any thoughts on how to make this work?

Dan

 

[dougi]

There are solutions for devices with good attempts at volume based EQ. eg the RME ADI-2 DAC (or the PRO with ADC as well), which is quite configurable in that regard. There are others though.

 

[nemanja_t]

Focal speakers for quiet listening.

 

[Bob-23]

Near-Field Listening: Acquired Taste or Proper Paradigm?
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/near-field-listening-acquired-taste-or-proper-paradigm.886/

 

[Chrispy]

Best thing I've ever done was stop living in apartments, works for more than just audio

 

[Trell]

The miniDSP you bought for room EQ will knock down the bass peaks that can by tall as mountains in small rooms.

You could also sit closer, if possible. The speakers needs less power for the same listening volume.

Buy a subwoofer and place it near field. For that you need bass management but your miniDSP DDRC-22D can not do that, though. Preferably the bass management should allow selecting crossover slope, try use a high order (steep) one. Genelec uses an 8th order LR crossover that is 48 db/octave steep for their bass management.

I've the RME ADI-2-DAC FS for my desktop system and the dynamic loudness feature works very well for me. It's also a powerful headphone amplifier and has a nifty remote in case you need it. You can also program it with various settings which can be handy to switch between night time listening, day time listening etc.

 

[earthtodan]

There are solutions for devices with good attempts at volume based EQ. eg the RME ADI-2 DAC (or the PRO with ADC as well), which is quite configurable in that regard. There are others though.

Wow! I didn't know that existed, but now I think I need one. From the RME manual:

8.5 Loudness Another legacy of HiFi amplifiers: there has not been a single one missing a feature called Loudness. It tries to address the changes in frequency-dependent hearing sensitivity over different volume levels. If one listens to music loud, then drops the level by at least 20 dB, sound loses punch and glitter. HiFi amps tried to fight this effect by adding more bass and treble the lower the volume was set. Unfortunately that never worked as intended, and just became an additional bass/treble booster. Reason: the manufacturer of the HiFi amp could not know what volume any position of the volume knob equals at the customer’s home. Room size, room dampening and efficiency of the used speakers are all unknown.

But the effect of loss in perceived sound exists (read about the Fletcher-Munson curves), and can be easily reproduced with any serious gear by comparing normal volume and DIM state (usually -20 dB). The ADI-2 DAC offers Loudness for the analog stereo outputs, and probably is the first time that Loudness works as intended. The user can decide how much maximum gain in Bass and Treble should occur at lower volume settings. The user also sets the Low Vol Reference, where maximum gain is achieved. After extensive tests a 20 dB range has been defined as range for maximum gain to no gain while increasing volume. That seemed to be the perfect definition of the range that needs to be addressed by Loudness.

Here is an example on how it works: the user’s typical lowest level listening volume is at -35 dB at the unit. This value is now set by the user as Low Vol Ref in the Loudness menu. Then Bass and Treble Gain can be set between 0 and +10 dB. Default is +7 dB for both. Increasing the volume by turning the Volume knob causes the gain in Bass and Treble to be lowered smoothly over a range of 20 dB. So when Volume is set to -15 dB, the music is not only quite loud, but Loudness’ Bass and Treble are then at 0 dB gain. See chapter 31.6 for graphs.

No matter how sensitive the connected phones or speakers are, no matter how much increase in Bass and Treble are desired – with the ADI-2 DAC one can finally adjust it to meet the personal hearing and taste. Loudness finally works as it should have worked from the start - another unique feature in the ADI-2 DAC.

Best thing I've ever done was stop living in apartments, works for more than just audio

Home ownership in the Bay Area is a pipe dream.

 

[earthtodan]

Near-Field Listening: Acquired Taste or Proper Paradigm?
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/near-field-listening-acquired-taste-or-proper-paradigm.886/

The couch is 6'-7' back from the speakers, and the living room is the priority over the listening room. Now that we're reopening and I can start having guests over again, it would be kind of strange to set it up as a one-person near-field listening space, so the stereo will have to work within the constraints.

And yes, I'm aware that the 8' RCA cable going to input #1 on the Schiit preamp is a shorting capacitor that might be veiling the detail above 100khz.


As it happens, I'm also interested in setting up a near-field desktop system around my work computer (not pictured), using Decware tiny radials. They sell as fast as they're made, so you have to keep refreshing the website to see if another pair goes up for sale.
https://www.decware.com/newsite/TinyRadialProject.html

 

[Canuck57]

Beautiful place, great view too!

 

[800]

How noisy is your apartment? When you sit silently for a bit and focus on the background noise can you detect things like a fridge or HVAC?Background noise even at moderately low levels that are hard to notice by ear can be effective maskers.

 

[earthtodan]

It can be fairly noisy. The fridge is on the other side of the wall from the TV, and the masking effect at low level listening at night is obvious. It also helps to keep the windows closed to shut out noise from the wind, the road, birds and foot traffic outside.

Now that you point it out, I am targeting levels that allow the refrigerator to post real competition. Maybe I should narrow the use case to daytime, and just use headphones (or my future desktop nearfield system) at night.

Beautiful place, great view too!

Thanks!