Headphones and the Harman target curve

[spittiz]

I recently started dabbling with EQ'ing my headphones (APO+Peace). I've been going back and fort with this with two of my headphones, the Hifiman Ananda and the Denon AH-D7200. With both of them, I think the Harman target profile sounds like shit. Especially with the Ananda it's like throwing a thick blanket over the sound. I also got the HD-650 but haven't done any testing with those yet.

I also tried the Oratory1990 settings, which is actually pretty good on the Denons but still crap on the Anandas to my ears since the soundstage gets smushed and the lovely airy and sparkly sound is gone.

Apparently, the Harman target curve tries to mimic the sound that the artist/engineer had in mind when creating the music. So I'm curious, do I just have a taste and hearing that differs from the majority, do people here generally like this kind of sound? I know plenty of people love the stock Anandas though, and there's a huge difference between the stock sound and the Harman target EQ'd sound.

I'm also curious if anyone got their own EQ settings for these headphones to share, I know many own the HD-650 here.

 

[Dreyfus]

do people here generally like this kind of sound?

Yes. And that's for two reasons:
a) it tries to mimic an in-room speaker response of a controlled listening room
b) it's based on science

do I just have a taste and hearing that differs from the majority?

You are probably used to a different type of sound. Our brains can be very irritated once we manipulate a used tonality. Give it some time to adapt. And try to not judge too fast.

By the way: The harman curve is not an absolute, fixed curve. There is still some room for taste and subjectivity.
Where Are We At With The Harman Curve?

 

[KeithPhantom]

HD-650

I own the HD 600, but I hate any headphone equalized to Harman, and I have given it more than enough testing and acclimatization time with multiple headphones (and I own the Samsung Galaxy Buds+, which are based on Harman, but I do not consider them to sound close to real) and I cannot bring myself to like it. But in contrast, I love the modified diffuse field curve Sennheiser used with the HD 6X0 line (I hate whatever they used for the stock HD 800/S). I have my own recordings of an instrument I play done by friends that have a professional studio, following multiple international standards, and anything EQ'd to Harman just doesn't sound real, let alone good to my ears. But I see the science they used to derive the curve and appreciate that others are able to enjoy it.

 

[o7_brother]

Especially with the Ananda it's like throwing a thick blanket over the sound.

Don't know if this will help but you're supposed to tweak the bass to your tastes. Sean Olive's studies found that the amount of bass is personal preference, so try setting the bass filter to zero or close to it.

As for me, I've gotten so used to my EQ profile that I hate using headphones without it. It's a modified Harman with more bass (yes, I'm a bass-head) and some tweaks to the treble.

 

[pkane]

I'm also curious if anyone got their own EQ settings for these headphones to share, I know many own the HD-650 here.

I've done something slightly different: measure actual frequency response using in-ear microphones, and then adjust to a straight, tilted line target with HD-650. Sounds better to my ears than the Harman target, as described here.

After correction, here's the result is (this is predicted result hugging the straight blue target line, not measured, measured was very close):

If you want to try my corrections:
(the +10dB shelf filter at around 30Hz is probably something you might want to reduce, depending on your ears and amplifier, also the 13.8k peaking filter is probably not needed, but was added by REW and I adjusted it slightly).

Let me know how this sounds to you, if you try it. These were derived for my own ears, so who knows how they'll sound to anyone else

 

[Zensō]

I’m using Oratory’s Harman curves on my Sennheiser 660S, Focal Elex, Focal Elegia, and Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro with Roon DSP. I made a few small adjustments for personal taste, but overall I’m very happy with the results.

 

[raistlin65]

So I'm curious, do I just have a taste and hearing that differs from the majority, do people here generally like this kind of sound?e HD-650 here.

HTR frequency response curve is a one size fits all solution that works fairly well for 2 out of 3 people. You could be the 1 out of 3 that it's not right for.

For example, I prefer more mid bass boost to give headphones more warmth than HTR.

 

[spittiz]

Yes. And that's for two reasons:
a) it tries to mimic an in-room speaker response of a controlled listening room
b) it's based on science


You are probably used to a different type of sound. Our brains can be very irritated once we manipulate a used tonality. Give it some time to adapt. And try to not judge too fast.

By the way: The harman curve is not an absolute, fixed curve. There is still some room for taste and subjectivity.
Where Are We At With The Harman Curve?

Yeah I'm definitely used to a different type of sound, but I can't say it sounds like listening to speakers to me either, and I've heard some descent setups.

I hate any headphone equalized to Harman

That has been my experience so far, yea.

I’m using Oratory’s Harman curves on my Sennheiser 660S, Focal Elex, Focal Elegia, and Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro with Roon DSP. I made a few small adjustments for personal taste, but overall I’m very happy with the results.

Well the AH-D7200 might actually be better with Oratory's eq compared to stock for me, will have to give it more time though.

Let me know how this sounds to you, if you try it. These were derived for my own ears, so who knows how they'll sound to anyone else

Very cool, thanks. I will try it.

 

[kkeretic]

I made the parameters for all my headphones from scratch based on the Oratory frequency response graphs using the AutoEq project by Jaakko Pasanen. Wanted some more precision with ~20 band params. And have to admit the results are really great sounding for my AKG K712, Sundara and Sennheiser HD599, but were utter crap for my brand new ATH-M50x. Both Oratory's and Jaakko's params are sounding like someone put a wet cloth on the speaker. So I kept only the first three (bass region) params from Oratory and left the rest flat up to the 20KHz. And I really like it this way. Now, if you look for the reviews of these cans around the net, you would find many people complaining about their V shape response, boomy bass and crappy overemphasized highs. The bass is easily fixed with the first three params. And I like their stock highs 'coz I like this kind of sound very opposite of the wet cloths all over the speakers no matter if it looks wrong from the Harman or any other curve point. So the point is to take their results as a base and adjust them to your liking because in the end the thing that counts in this hobby is enjoyment and not forcing on something that doesn’t suit us.

 

[spittiz]

I've done something slightly different: measure actual frequency response using in-ear microphones, and then adjust to a straight, tilted line target with HD-650. Sounds better to my ears than the Harman target, as described here.

After correction, here's the result is (this is predicted result hugging the straight blue target line, not measured, measured was very close):
View attachment 96228


If you want to try my corrections:
(the +10dB shelf filter at around 30Hz is probably something you might want to reduce, depending on your ears and amplifier, also the 13.8k peaking filter is probably not needed, but was added by REW and I adjusted it slightly).

View attachment 96230

Let me know how this sounds to you, if you try it. These were derived for my own ears, so who knows how they'll sound to anyone else

I've been listening to the HD-650 with your EQ applied for a couple of hours now. I think our hearing and taste align, it's much better than the Harman target to me, and I might prefer it to the stock sound, too early to make that statement, but yea I like it. I haven't used the HD-650 much lately overall so would need to get properly accustomed again to give more meaningful impressions. Have you done this with any other headphones?

 

[pkane]

I've been listening to the HD-650 with your EQ applied for a couple of hours now. I think our hearing and taste align, it's much better than the Harman target to me, and I might prefer it to the stock sound, too early to make that statement, but yea I like it. I haven't used the HD-650 much lately overall so would need to get properly accustomed again to give more meaningful impressions. Have you done this with any other headphones?

Yes, also did this with HE-560 and Stax Lambdas. Also liked the result with those. Here's the HE560 response after EQ (again, using my ears with in-ear mics):

 

[LearningToSmile]

I tried it with my Elears and also found it made them sound like shit. With Elears the problem is that they have an "objective" flaw, a dip at 5kHz, that subjectively is not an issue for me, and "fixing" that, either as part of a Harman curve or even just targeting it on its own, made things sound tinny and unnatural.

Yes. And that's for two reasons:
a) it tries to mimic an in-room speaker response of a controlled listening room
b) it's based on science

I feel like that's just extremely condescending and doesn't take into account multiple variables that can lead to different results in practice. It's less science and more dogma. Harman curve for headphones will, on average, often produce good results, but for individual listeners it does not mean that it will always work to achieve what it's designed to, because of individual differences in anatomy.

 

[Dreyfus]

I feel like that's just extremely condescending and doesn't take into account multiple variables that can lead to different results in practice. It's less science and more dogma. Harman curve for headphones will, on average, often produce good results, but for individual listeners it does not mean that it will always work to achieve what it's designed to, because of individual differences in anatomy.

The initial question was whether or not people around here "generally like" the Harman response. I think there is a noticable tendency around here to confirm the empirical Harman average instead of calling for "arbitrary" subjective EQ curves.

But maybe we should start a poll to survey that?

PS: With regard to the limits of technical measurements and anthropometric differences: Don't worry, I know the rules of the game very well.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...headphone-resolution.17684/page-2#post-574756

 

[wasnotwasnotwas]

Yeah I'm definitely used to a different type of sound, but I can't say it sounds like listening to speakers to me either, and I've heard some descent setups.



That has been my experience so far, yea.



Well the AH-D7200 might actually be better with Oratory's eq compared to stock for me, will have to give it more time though.



Very cool, thanks. I will try it.

I find some hp I have sound good (better than stock or my own sloppy eq) with oratory /Harman eq. Others, not so much.

Totally unscientific approach to this, not to be trusted.

 

[Feelas]

Both Oratory's and Jaakko's params are sounding like someone put a wet cloth on the speaker.

After moving from kinda strange (mid-bass boosted & hyped on top), very clear and "right-there" KNS-8400 onto K371s I start to feel that the veil kinda should be there. The perception of harmonics (and thus proper instrument character, where the ratio of fundamentals to harmonics is pretty much well-defined) depends heavily on whether the HF is correctly reproduced or not. I think the clarity might be taken as a must, where many recordings just aren't meant to sound "clear", you're perhaps trading off the feeling of hi-end high-resolution for depth perception and placement.

Not to say that you can't, just so, you know, think about that if you want. I just find it strange how bright headphones obscure the room reverb occuring.

And even find it more puzzling why people are making such a big deal of overboosted bass, when all you have to do is add a low-shelf filter with a corner around 200Hz and just set it yourself... Phon curves make it necessary, anyways.

 

[pwjazz]

Here's s great video on the Harman Target that just came out.

 

[Feelas]

Here's s great video on the Harman Target that just came out.

Valid points, despite the kinda pretentious one about appealing to the masses. I get that his videos have a certain demographic and getting your listeners' ego higher ends up with more happiness in the listeners, but look at what he's doing - extrapolating the "car subwoofer guy" into something "common", despite these people are really rarely noticed. Reminds me of merely an emotional statement to catch the listeneres...

 

[Memoryerror]

I really think that the future really lies in stuff like Smyth Research is doing: https://smyth-research.com/

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

It doesn't sound neutral to my ears. Too much bass and upper mids. But it is a great starting point for adjustments since it is preferred on average.

 

[Feelas]

It doesn't sound neutral to my ears. Too much bass and upper mids. But it is a great starting point for adjustments since it is preferred on average.

Upper mids is being referred to as "too much" pretty often as I can see - how is it felt, exactly? Is it too forward, harsh? What gear did you try for it to appear so? Would be interesting to know. Maybe combining Harman with an already-bright presentation over 10kHz lends itself to be absolutely over-the-top, in theory it'd make sense and I'm asking people about that.