Gear advice

[Lttlwing16]

Hey folks, long time reader, looking for some input.

Pretty set on the Aeon RT closed as my first pair of nice headphones. Now to find the right DAC/AMP: Will need two main inputs: PC and Vinyl. (USB/RCA)

I'm considering;

Element II : $399
Atom Stack: $200 (will need to use a RCA>3.5mm cable for Vinyl to input to the ATOM Amp.)
SCHIIT MODI/MAGNI/SYS: $250 (triple stack : \)
Fiio K5 Pro + BTR5 + Hart Balanced Cable: $310. (Most versatile of the bunch, as it add's the ability to listen to the Aeon's away from the desk with the BTR5+Balanced Cable)

Thanks for any advice!

David

 

[NTK]

Welcome to ASR!

The Aeon RT is quite inefficient and needs a high current amp (13 ohm impedance, 677 mV for 94 dB SPL, i.e. current 0.05 A). I believe the JDS Labs Element II and Atom are limited to 0.2 A output current, and will give you max 106 dB SPL. The Magni can output twice the current of the JDS Labs amps, and therefore should give you 6 dB more max output. The BTR5 is far behind the other two in terms of output capabilities.

 

[Lttlwing16]

Welcome to ASR!

The Aeon RT is quite inefficient and needs a high current amp (13 ohm impedance, 677 mV for 94 dB SPL, i.e. current 0.05 A). I believe the JDS Labs Element II and Atom are limited to 0.2 A output current, and will give you max 106 dB SPL. The Magni can output twice the current of the JDS Labs amps, and therefore should give you 6 dB more max output. The BTR5 is far behind the other two in terms of output capabilities.

Thanks NTK for the welcome and input!

Atom -- though recommended to drive the Aeon's in it's review thread, may be slightly lean on current for the Aeon RT's -- can't have simultaneous headphone output and line output out of the RCA output (which is a bummer for recording vinyl, which I like to do), comes with great support. Decent volume control.

Magni Heresy - ample current, and power in general with a nice distortion profile. Volume control/channel imbalance is an issue.

K5 pro - Output impedance (2.2 ohms) above the recommended 1/10th of headphones (1.3 for Aeon). Peak output at 33 ohm is less than a watt. Poor performing DAC. Simultaneous output from headphone and line out, good volume control. Leaves money in the bank!

BTR5 - recommended by Dan Clark himself in the Aeon thread as a "staff favorite" for mobile use with the RT's. Makes me wonder how much power is really neccesary for my listening levels!

 

[Lttlwing16]

Then there is the Magnius/Modius combo for the same price as the Element II, but with much more power and XLR inputs!

Not sure if those will let pre-outs output at the same time as the headphones?

 

[Lttlwing16]

I think it really depends what you're looking for. The Element II is a great desktop all-in-one unit, but it's not the absolute pinnacle of performance (which isn't really as important as people make it out to be). What matters most is that you get something audibly transparent, with the specific features you need (ins and outs you need, available power for your headphones, whether you need a preamp out for powered monitors, bluetooth, etc.) with the level of reliability and/or customer support that works for you, and of course within your budget. JDS is fantastic on the support side (better than anyone in this price range, without question), and the reliability seems to be quite good; my JDS Atom Amp has held up quite well despite the lightweight build. But you can certainly get more flexibility and even technically better performance at a lower price, whether that's by going with an Atom Amp & DAC or any of the other popular budget stacks. All are cheaper than the Element II; honestly the most distinguishing features of the Element are the sharp industrial design (it's a beautiful chunk of carved metal with a glorious knob) and the top notch customer service. But you're paying quite a bit more for that fancy case than you would if you just want functionality and features.

If you're considering the BTR5, I'd just suggest you take a long hard look at the Qudelix 5k, which (IMO) has an even better feature set for the same price. Mine has been fantastic, to the point where I now use it as a dedicated USB DAC feeding my Atom Amp, and I have access to the same exact EQ profiles for all my headphones whether I'm at my desktop, out on the town, watching TV via bluetooth... Besides the headphones themselves, using EQ properly will make the biggest difference in your listening experience, and I love the way the Qudelix app integrates these features into an exquisitely designed app.

My recommendation is to get a JDS Atom Amp (assuming you can live with the lightweight plastic build), get the Qudelix 5K to use as a dedicated USB DAC and as a bluetooth device for portable use, and just get a normal non-fancy balanced cable for much less money. You'll get zero sonic improvement from a Hart cable, even if it's built well and looks nice. If you really want a dedicated standalone DAC, grab the Atom DAC and be done with it. Good luck!

Glad you mentioned input/output needs as I'd really like the ability to output AND have the headphones active at the same time for when I'm ripping vinyl to Audacity.

Unfortunately, it seems the Atom amp cannot do this. Plugging in the headphones, turns off the output in the back.

The K5 pro can do this, but isn't the best fit for the Aeon RT's from a power/impedance standpoint.

Looking at the Magnius/Modius stack as it comes in about the same price of the element II.

I'll look into the Qudelix as it seems like a great option.

 

[ishouldbeking]

Glad you mentioned input/output needs as I'd really like the ability to output AND have the headphones active at the same time for when I'm ripping vinyl to Audacity.

Unfortunately, it seems the Atom amp cannot do this. Plugging in the headphones, turns off the output in the back.

The K5 pro can do this, but isn't the best fit for the Aeon RT's from a power/impedance standpoint.

Looking at the Magnius/Modius stack as it comes in about the same price of the element II.

I'll look into the Qudelix as it seems like a great option.

Yeah, ins and outs often justify the jump to more expensive gear, sadly. I'm lucky that the Atom has the preamp functionality I need to switch between headphones and speakers with ease, but I'm never in a position to need both at once on my setup. You might need something with more granular options.

 

[Lttlwing16]

Yeah, ins and outs often justify the jump to more expensive gear, sadly. I'm lucky that the Atom has the preamp functionality I need to switch between headphones and speakers with ease, but I'm never in a position to need both at once on my setup. You might need something with more granular options.

What's crazy is I have a 12 channel Yamaha Mixer sitting on my desk I have for doing home studio recording, but I'm leery to route my hi-fi through it as I cant speak to its fidelity.

Taking a hard look at the Drop THX AAA 789 + Balanced DAC, also not sure if the RCA output is independent of the headphone out. I'm thinking if I'm using the 4 pin differential output on the front, then perhaps I could output from the SE output simultaneously?? Will have to ask over in that thread.

 

[devopsprodude]

Topping A30 Pro headphone amp is definitely worth looking into. It has enough power to drive anything.

 

[Lttlwing16]

Monolith 788 might check all the boxes, including added EQ for all inputs, including analog. Although volume control had some issues, and it adds AD conversion to analog inputs.

AND

I just came across this today: https://www.xduoo.net/product/xa-10/

Which hasn't been tested by @amirm yet but other products from Xduoo I believe measured well.

 

[Gurkerl]

Amir has measured the XA-10 already: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...uoo-xa-10-review-dac-and-headphone-amp.21499/

 

[Lttlwing16]

Amir has measured the XA-10 already: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...uoo-xa-10-review-dac-and-headphone-amp.21499/

Ahh missed that, not the best measuring.

 

[luft262]

I'm not sure about recording vinyl, but I use a JDS Atom stack with my Sundara headphones and they are amazing! I generally find that you don't need as much power and most people think. I spend most of my time at 10 to 11 o'clock volume, on low gain, while listening.

Have you considered the SMSL-SU9 and the SMSL-SH9? Those get amazing reviews here too.

 

[Lttlwing16]

I'm not sure about recording vinyl, but I use a JDS Atom stack with my Sundara headphones and they are amazing! I generally find that you don't need as much power and most people think. I spend most of my time at 10 to 11 o'clock volume, on low gain, while listening.

Have you considered the SMSL-SU9 and the SMSL-SH9? Those get amazing reviews here too.

I really like the JDS labs stuff, unfortunately, the atom switches the line out off when headphones are plugged in, so won't work for my use case.

Dan Clark has also mentioned that he likes to listen no louder than 85 dbSPL so he finds around 500mW adequate, even for the Aeon RT's. I'd also like to guard my hearing with headphones, so I've been wondering if chasing big power is really even necessary for me. That said, better to have it and not use it, than need it and not have it.

The SMSL stuff looks amazing. Unfortunately, those are a bit out of my price range. I am also short on desktop space so I'd like to try to find a great DAC/AMP that doesn't break the bank. The 788 is winning it out right now. Not sure when the Fiio K7 is coming out but it looked promising.

Thanks for your input!

 

[Lttlwing16]

As an update decided on the MASS DROP THX AAA 789 for my amplifier. Ordered from Amazon Warehouse in like new condition for $296. Will be using with my turntable and lesser headphones (HD280 pro and AKG K55) until until I decide on a balanced DAC and nice set of headphone(s).

Still leaning towards the Schiit Modius and either the Aeon RT, or possibly the Noire. Considering the dt1990 with dekoni pads as well.

 

[Lttlwing16]

As an update: Went with the following for my reference headphone setup:

Drop THX 789 $320 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-massdrop-thx-aaa-789-amp.5001/)
Drop + Grace Design Balanced DAC $160 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...asurements-of-grace-design-balanced-dac.8201/)
Dan Clark Aeon RT with 4-pin balanced dummer cable: $499 (arrives today 5/28!) (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-audio-aeon-rt-review-closed-headphone.19393/)

Equipment I already owned:

Technics SL-23 with AT-3600L cartridge

ART DJ PREII (this I had to ground to the metal power strip it was plugged into with a jumper cable (piece of speaker wire) from the grounding screw of the preamp to a screw on the side of the power strip, as the PREII nor the 789 have grounded power supplies. This worked to eliminate the grounding buzz I was getting in the headphones when connected to the SE input of the phono stage.) (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rn-pluto-and-art-djpre-ii-phono-preamps.3457/)

Working on getting a good vinyl cleaning setup now. Ordered the requisite supplies for the london jazz collectors recipe (https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/home-brew-cleaner-for-vacuum-rcms/) and now I'm either going to setup my own vacuum RCM or get a record doctor V/VI.

 

[Aelemar]

Welcome to ASR!

The Aeon RT is quite inefficient and needs a high current amp (13 ohm impedance, 677 mV for 94 dB SPL, i.e. current 0.05 A). I believe the JDS Labs Element II and Atom are limited to 0.2 A output current, and will give you max 106 dB SPL. The Magni can output twice the current of the JDS Labs amps, and therefore should give you 6 dB more max output. The BTR5 is far behind the other two in terms of output capabilities.

This post is fairly old, but I figured I would offer a correction to this comment in the event others (like me) are confused.
I almost ended up selling my Element 2 because of this comment, but instead contacted JDS Labs to ask for their input.
According to JDS Labs, there is no stated current limit on the Element II. The 0.2A quoted here just happens to be the Element 2's current at its 32Ohm specification. According to JDS Labs, the Element II should perform even better at lower resistance.

Current can be calculated in various ways, but here are two common formulas:

Current = Voltage divided by Resistance. In the Element 2's case, it's 6.5V / 32 Ohm which = 0.2A
Current = Power (in watts) divided by Volts. In this case, 1.3W/6.5V which = 0.2A

Still, the Aeon RT requires 677mW of power at 13 Ohm Impedance. If we calculate the current needed in this case:

Current = Square root of Power (in watts) divided by Resistance (in ohms). So we arrive at the following:

0.677 Watts Divided by 13 Ohms = 0.520
Square Root of 0.520 = 0.228

So, at a bare minimum, the Element II can handle the Aeon RT Closed without issue.

Now, in my experience, when connected to the Element II, the Aeon RT Closed reach comfortable listening levels with the volume knob around the 2 o'clock mark in Low Gain.

If switched to High Gain, the knob has to be lowered to around the 10 o'clock mark.
This is WITH Equalization and negative pre-amp values in Equalizer APO.

 

[NTK]

This post is fairly old, but I figured I would offer a correction to this comment in the event others (like me) are confused.
I almost ended up selling my Element 2 because of this comment, but instead contacted JDS Labs to ask for their input.
According to JDS Labs, there is no stated current limit on the Element II. The 0.2A quoted here just happens to be the Element 2's current at its 32Ohm specification. According to JDS Labs, the Element II should perform even better at lower resistance.

Current can be calculated in various ways, but here are two common formulas:

Current = Voltage divided by Resistance. In the Element 2's case, it's 6.5V / 32 Ohm which = 0.2A
Current = Power (in watts) divided by Volts. In this case, 1.3W/6.5V which = 0.2A

Still, the Aeon RT requires 677mW of power at 13 Ohm Impedance. If we calculate the current needed in this case:

Current = Square root of Power (in watts) divided by Resistance (in ohms). So we arrive at the following:

0.677 Watts Divided by 13 Ohms = 0.520
Square Root of 0.520 = 0.228

So, at a bare minimum, the Element II can handle the Aeon RT Closed without issue.

Now, in my experience, when connected to the Element II, the Aeon RT Closed reach comfortable listening levels with the volume knob around the 2 o'clock mark in Low Gain.

If switched to High Gain, the knob has to be lowered to around the 10 o'clock mark.
This is WITH Equalization and negative pre-amp values in Equalizer APO.

The JDS Element 2 uses the TI LME49600 (formerly National Semiconductor) buffer as output device. The rated output current of the LME49600 is 250 mA, which means for RMS value, it is = 250/sqrt(2) = 177 mA. I am already being generous in rounding it up to 0.2 A.

 

[Aelemar]

The JDS Element 2 uses the TI LME49600 (formerly National Semiconductor) buffer as output device. The rated output current of the LME49600 is 250 mA, which means for RMS value, it is = 250/sqrt(2) = 177 mA. I am already being generous in rounding it up to 0.2 A.
View attachment 185520


View attachment 185521

Hi! Thanks for the reply and clarification. Seeing as I'm fairly new to the audio thing, I can only rely on whatever people with more knowledge offer when it comes to making decisions.

I quoted your reply and sent it over to John Seaber (JDS Labs) for clarification.

This is the message I sent him:

"Hi! I responded to the forum in question with the information you provided, and here's their reply, and I quote:

"The JDS Element 2 uses the TI LME49600 (formerly National Semiconductor) buffer as output device. The rated output current of the LME49600 is 250 mA, which means for RMS value, it is = 250/sqrt(2) = 177 mA. I am already being generous in rounding it up to 0.2 A."

The headphone in question requires around 0.228A, despite having really low impedance (13ohm), it's very inefficient, requiring around 677mW @ 94dB SPL

Either way, I am having no issue with volume levels at all, although in Low Gain, I do have to dial the knob almost all the way to the right. Would you mind offering some input/clarification? I'd certainly appreciate the learning experience."

And here is JDS Labs response!


"Ah, good to see some math backing up the claim! It seems we do agree on the underlying math, but not the interpretation of the calculations.

The LME49600 is a capable output stage. Datasheet specs are a good starting point for information and should always be followed by real world observations. TI/National is conservative with the 250mA output current spec, listing it as as "(typ)". On page 4 of the datasheet, you'll find Rated Output Current is +/-250mA, and Short Circuit Output Current is +/- 550 mA. Also note the LME49600 is internally protected with current limiting and thermal protection, so its output capability is highly dependent on available heatsinking.

All recent JDS Labs amplifiers have been analyzed and vetted by third parties. I've found Element II to achieve over 1.3W per channel @ 0.1% THD+N, continuously, at 32 ohms. Solving for continuous current:

P = V^2/R = V*I
1.3 = V^2/32
32*1.1 = V2
V = 6.45 VRMS
I = P/V = 1.3/6.45 = 201 mA (confirmed real world output)

I have not tested at 13 ohms, but following the real world current limit of Element II, we can solve for voltage and power:

V = IR = 0.201*13 = 2.613 VRMS
P = (V^2)/R = ((2.613)^2)/13 = 525 mW @ 13 ohms --> Calculated, not real world.

From my experience with LME49600, it handles much higher output for short durations.

Either way, I am having no issue with volume levels at all, although in Low Gain, I do have to dial the knob almost all the way to the right.

You need only 125mW @ 94dB/mW to reach 115 dB SPL.
Your ears are correct: 525 mW >> 125mW, so output is clean and powerful."

 

[NTK]

Hi! Thanks for the reply and clarification. Seeing as I'm fairly new to the audio thing, I can only rely on whatever people with more knowledge offer when it comes to making decisions.

I quoted your reply and sent it over to John Seaber (JDS Labs) for clarification.

This is the message I sent him:

"Hi! I responded to the forum in question with the information you provided, and here's their reply, and I quote:

"The JDS Element 2 uses the TI LME49600 (formerly National Semiconductor) buffer as output device. The rated output current of the LME49600 is 250 mA, which means for RMS value, it is = 250/sqrt(2) = 177 mA. I am already being generous in rounding it up to 0.2 A."

The headphone in question requires around 0.228A, despite having really low impedance (13ohm), it's very inefficient, requiring around 677mW @ 94dB SPL

Either way, I am having no issue with volume levels at all, although in Low Gain, I do have to dial the knob almost all the way to the right. Would you mind offering some input/clarification? I'd certainly appreciate the learning experience."

And here is JDS Labs response!


"Ah, good to see some math backing up the claim! It seems we do agree on the underlying math, but not the interpretation of the calculations.

The LME49600 is a capable output stage. Datasheet specs are a good starting point for information and should always be followed by real world observations. TI/National is conservative with the 250mA output current spec, listing it as as "(typ)". On page 4 of the datasheet, you'll find Rated Output Current is +/-250mA, and Short Circuit Output Current is +/- 550 mA. Also note the LME49600 is internally protected with current limiting and thermal protection, so its output capability is highly dependent on available heatsinking.

All recent JDS Labs amplifiers have been analyzed and vetted by third parties. I've found Element II to achieve over 1.3W per channel @ 0.1% THD+N, continuously, at 32 ohms. Solving for continuous current:

P = V^2/R = V*I
1.3 = V^2/32
32*1.1 = V2
V = 6.45 VRMS
I = P/V = 1.3/6.45 = 201 mA (confirmed real world output)

I have not tested at 13 ohms, but following the real world current limit of Element II, we can solve for voltage and power:

V = IR = 0.201*13 = 2.613 VRMS
P = (V^2)/R = ((2.613)^2)/13 = 525 mW @ 13 ohms --> Calculated, not real world.

From my experience with LME49600, it handles much higher output for short durations.





You need only 125mW @ 94dB/mW to reach 115 dB SPL.
Your ears are correct: 525 mW >> 125mW, so output is clean and powerful."

The TI datasheet spec is definitely very conservative. If you look at Amir's recent test of the Element III (which I don't think JDS Labs have made any substantial changes to the output stage), it has about 6 dB headroom (i.e. ~double the current, and 4x power) over the TI rating.

JDS Labs Element III Review (DAC & Amp)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JDS Labs Element III stereo DAC and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $449. As you see, the Element III has the treasured and much praised large rotary control which here, doubles as volume control and...

www.audiosciencereview.com