Focal Utopia Review (Headphone)

[oleg87]

Do any electroacoustics-minded folks know what the exceptionally high-excursion driver in the Focal is supposed to get you/what the tradeoffs there are?

 

[Blorg]

Do any electroacoustics-minded folks know what the exceptionally high-excursion driver in the Focal is supposed to get you/what the tradeoffs there are?

Focal claim, dynamics. And subjectively- they do sound very dynamic to me. The largest trade off is the clipping. This is what Focal say about it, there is more discussion of this on the Clear threads- the Clear clips I think easier than the Utopia, although the Utopia will also clip like this for me if I go looking for it specifically with test tracks at high volume. Normal listening, I never get it.

Indeed, we have made a clear design choice on Elear (and by consequence Elex) and Utopia. Our headphones have been designed to favor the respect of the dynamic contained within the audio signal versus dynamic compression that would offer a higher SPL capability but less respect of the original audio signal. To cut a long story short, the choice was audio quality oriented rather than SPL oriented. This allows our products to work with full performances until the mechanical clipping is activated. This means that you jump directly from a very low distortion to a sound which could be heard as rattling / cracking noise. On very special tracks with only very low frequencies at very high level, you can thus hear some noises - as you will do on classic loudspeakers.

Massdrop x Focal Elex Review & Measurements

If I turn the volume very high, I get driver excursion rattle, but I listened to just before the rattle for a few minutes and my ears rang when I took off the headphones. This is the most common sense reply I’ve read on this issue so far. If you’re hitting the limit of the drivers at volume...

www.head-fi.org

This is also seen in Amir's measurements, with very low distortion at lower SPL.

 

[Garrincha]

Pad type, pad wear, and seal does significantly change the sound, and this is also very evident in measurements of the frequency response. I'm not sure how this can be dismissed as not relevant.

The scientific method works like this: extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence or proof. If it is claimed that the bass is much more "punchy" or having more "slam" even with EQed identical or at least similar FR, than there should be demonstrated some evidence supporting, otherwise the claim remains very dubious.

 

[Garrincha]

Focal claim, dynamics. And subjectively- they do sound very dynamic to me. The largest trade off is the clipping. This is what Focal say about it, there is more discussion of this on the Clear threads- the Clear clips I think easier than the Utopia, although the Utopia will also clip like this for me if I go looking for it specifically with test tracks at high volume. Normal listening, I never get it.

Massdrop x Focal Elex Review & Measurements

If I turn the volume very high, I get driver excursion rattle, but I listened to just before the rattle for a few minutes and my ears rang when I took off the headphones. This is the most common sense reply I’ve read on this issue so far. If you’re hitting the limit of the drivers at volume...

www.head-fi.org

This is too funny, not you list 1) a manufacteres quote (highly biased) published on 2) head-fi (even more so). Very hilarious and extremely scientific!

 

[Blorg]

The scientific method works like this: extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence or proof. If it is claimed that the bass is much more "punchy" or having more "slam" even with EQed identical or at least similar FR, than there should be demonstrated some evidence supporting, otherwise the claim remains very dubious.

It's not an extraordinary claim though that pad changes, wear or seal breaks affect the sound, it's well documented. You can see this in the measurements.

 

[Blorg]

This is too funny, not you list 1) a manufacteres quote (highly biased) published on 2) head-fi (even more so). Very hilarious and extremely scientific!

This is a direct response to Oleg's question as to what the supposed point is, and also what the trade off is. This is what Focal claim as to why they do it that way, and the clipping is a direct negative consequence (trade off). This is from Head-Fi as that is where Focal themselves posted it. It has been posted here on ASR before, in the Clear review thread, and you can go there to read more discussion on it.

I'm not posting this as some last word on it that is somehow gospel, but it is directly relevant to the question and it is the explanation of the manufacturer as to why they do it that way.

 

[PGAMiami]

Focal claim, dynamics. And subjectively- they do sound very dynamic to me. The largest trade off is the clipping. This is what Focal say about it, there is more discussion of this on the Clear threads- the Clear clips I think easier than the Utopia, although the Utopia will also clip like this for me if I go looking for it specifically with test tracks at high volume. Normal listening, I never get it.

Massdrop x Focal Elex Review & Measurements

If I turn the volume very high, I get driver excursion rattle, but I listened to just before the rattle for a few minutes and my ears rang when I took off the headphones. This is the most common sense reply I’ve read on this issue so far. If you’re hitting the limit of the drivers at volume...

www.head-fi.org

This is also seen in Amir's measurements, with very low distortion at lower SPL.

Punch has to do with SPL, which in turn will be a function of the size of the driver and the excursion

 

[Garrincha]

Punch has to do with SPL, which in turn will be a function of the size of the driver and the excursion

Ok, so which one should have more punch, a smaller or a larger driver? It would be strange if it is the smaller one, but the Utopia has a 40mm driver, while the HD800 has a 56mm one. If I look at my 3 way speaker and identify the bass driver.....

 

[Garrincha]

This is a direct response to Oleg's question as to what the supposed point is, and also what the trade off is. This is what Focal claim as to why they do it that way, and the clipping is a direct negative consequence (trade off). This is from Head-Fi as that is where Focal themselves posted it. It has been posted here on ASR before, in the Clear review thread, and you can go there to read more discussion on it.

I'm not posting this as some last word on it that is somehow gospel, but it is directly relevant to the question and it is the explanation of the manufacturer as to why they do it that way.

So if TotalDac company states that their DACs sound the best or PS Audio claim that their conditioners clean the sound, you will cite it also as evidence?

 

[PGAMiami]

Ok, so which one should have more punch, a smaller or a larger driver? It would be strange if it is the smaller one, but the Utopia has a 40mm driver, while the HD800 has a 56mm one. If I look at my 3 way speaker and identify the bass driver.....

The SPL is going to be a function of the frequency, the excursion and the area of the driver. The basic formula is as follows for an ideal pistonic driver, which in real life does not exist.

p=Sd*Xmax*f^2*pi*rho0/(r*sqrt(2))

where p=sound pressure in Pa, Sd=eqv. piston area in m², Xmax=max peak excursion in m, f=frequency in Hz, rho0=1.2kg/m3, r=speaker-to-mic distance in m.

So you can see it increases with the square of the frequency and linearly with the excursion of driver. This is how tweeters can get away with being much smaller than woofers. Loading of the driver will also matter. For example, a horn will focus the energy in one direction and increase the coupling of the driver to the air. Beryllium is very difficult to work with, but it is very stiff and light, so it’s ideal for drivers. The resonant frequency also is high and the cone breakup is minimized. This is the secret sauce of the Utopia. It has a very stiff, light driver that allows more excursion before the cone itself starts to bend as it moves in and out. That is why the distortion is low.

But there is much more to how these headphones sound than just the drivers being quite exceptIonal. The shape of the cone matters, as does the grill and the shape of the headphone. All these will vibrate and reflect. This is one of the faults of the Utopia that focal claims has improved in the recent version. And as mentioned elsewhere, the pads and how the headphones seal on your ear greatly affect loading, and therefore bass.

And keep in mind this formula is for an ideal driver. A cheap driver that is 12” in diameter most likely will not perform as well as a higher quality smaller cone. The magnets, surround, voice coil … all matter and they all introduce problems that cause the drivers to underperform a theoretical ideal driver.

But if your point is that the Utopia must have less distortion free SPL than the HD800 because the drivers are smaller, then you’re not looking at many other variables that are very much in play, not the least of which is the part of the frequency spectrum where you’re pushing the driver to its limits. And again the designer has to make choices. One can minimize resonance in a driver by adding damping material, but that will make it heavier and it will require more power to get it to move. Remember f=ma.

So overall, the Utopia are far from perfect, but the engineering compromises have been minimized in a way that resulted in a overall performance level I find very appealing. For example, they are much easier to drive than a DCA headphone. The DCA need very little EQ, the Utopia some, the HD800 need a lot of EQ. For some people this matters. Again, none are perfect, pick your poison. But they surely don’t all sound the same.

 

[Garrincha]

The SPL is going to be a function of the frequency, the excursion and the area of the driver. The basic formula is as follows for an ideal pistonic driver, which in real life does not exist.

p=Sd*Xmax*f^2*pi*rho0/(r*sqrt(2))

where p=sound pressure in Pa, Sd=eqv. piston area in m², Xmax=max peak excursion in m, f=frequency in Hz, rho0=1.2kg/m3, r=speaker-to-mic distance in m.

So you can see it increases with the square of the frequency and linearly with the excursion of driver. This is how tweeters can get away with being much smaller than woofers. Loading of the driver will also matter. For example, a horn will focus the energy in one direction and increase the coupling of the driver to the air. Beryllium is very difficult to work with, but it is very stiff and light, so it’s ideal for drivers. The resonant frequency also is high and the cone breakup is minimized. This is the secret sauce of the Utopia. It has a very stiff, light driver that allows more excursion before the cone itself starts to bend as it moves in and out. That is why the distortion is low.

But there is much more to how these headphones sound than just the drivers being quite exceptIonal. The shape of the cone matters, as does the grill and the shape of the headphone. All these will vibrate and reflect. This is one of the faults of the Utopia that focal claims has improved in the recent version. And as mentioned elsewhere, the pads and how the headphones seal on your ear greatly affect loading, and therefore bass.

And keep in mind this formula is for an ideal driver. A cheap driver that is 12” in diameter most likely will not perform as well as a higher quality smaller cone. The magnets, surround, voice coil … all matter and they all introduce problems that cause the drivers to underperform a theoretical ideal driver.

But if your point is that the Utopia must have less distortion free SPL than the HD800 because the drivers are smaller, then you’re not looking at many other variables that are very much in play, not the least of which is the part of the frequency spectrum where you’re pushing the driver to its limits.

No, that was not my point, I just looked at the measurements done by Amir what distortion is concerned, and at the specs what the driver size is concerned. And I mentioned that proper bass reproduction usually is favoured by a larger driver diameter.

And again the designer has to make choices. One can minimize resonance in a driver by adding damping material, but that will make it heavier and it will require more power to get it to move. Remember f=ma.

So overall, the Utopia are far from perfect, but the engineering compromises have been minimized in a way that resulted in a overall performance level I find very appealing. For example, they are much easier to drive than a DCA headphone. The DCA need very little EQ, the Utopia some, the HD800 need a lot of EQ. For some people this matters. Again, none are perfect, pick your poison. But they surely don’t all sound the same.

I did never say they sound the same, I just put in question that the Utopia has more "punch" and am still waiting for the evidence for that, besides subjectivist assertions.

 

[PGAMiami]

No, that was not my point, I just looked at the measurements done by Amir what distortion is concerned, and at the specs what the driver size is concerned. And I mentioned that proper bass reproduction usually is favoured by a larger driver diameter.

I did never say they sound the same, I just put in question that the Utopia has more "punch" and am still waiting for the evidence for that, besides subjectivist assertions.

It’s amazing to me that someone that has never heard the Focal Utopia has so much to say about them. It’s obvious from your posts that your main underlying point is that one can outperform the Utopia with an HD800. I‘ve never heard an HD800, but I expect they are great but different from the Utopia. Like two great single malts. But I would surely not have so many opinions on a single malt I have never tried based only on things like the proof, years aged and region. Just like single malts, high end audio is much more complex than a few statistics. Like I wrote above, Amir has forgotten more about measuring audio equipment than I will ever know, but even Amir listens to every product he reviews and he objectively evaluates both his measurements and his subjective impressions in all his reviews.

 

[spede]

It's borderline batshit crazy that here are members who own both or owned headphones and yet we should provide scientifically evidence or we pull things out of our ass when we speak about difference of these headphones in same EQ target from totally different companies, with different weight, driver size, housing, driver type and so on.

I could literally make same claim about Koss Porta Pro and Utopia and ask for evidence or declaring they are same in bass in same EQ target.

 

[Luke Lemke]

My take on what's been discussed in this thread:
-No, the HD 6XX is not as good as the Utopia, even when they're both EQed to the Harman target.
-Comparing IEM's to open back headphones is weird.
-Yes, the Utopia is not a good value since it costs $4000.
-The HD800 and the Utopia are both awesome headphones with different characteristics, but the HD800 is the better value.
-If objective measurements is all that matters when it comes to headphones, we should all just the AKG k371 and get rid of whatever headphones or amps we have.

I don't own the Utopia, but I own the Focal Clear OG and MG, so I'm basing my opinion on these cans which are pretty close to the Utopia.

 

[Garrincha]

It’s amazing to me that someone that has never heard the Focal Utopia has so much to say about them. It’s obvious from your posts that your main underlying point is that one can outperform the Utopia with an HD800. I‘ve never heard an HD800, but I expect they are great but different from the Utopia. Like two great single malts. But I would surely not have so many opinions on a single malt I have never tried based only on things like the proof, years aged and region. Just like single malts, high end audio is much more complex than a few statistics. Like I wrote above, Amir has forgotten more about measuring audio equipment than I will ever know, but even Amir listens to every product he reviews and he objectively evaluates both his measurements and his subjective impressions in all his reviews.

Ok I got it, now you are at the point of comparing headphones and hifi products to whiskey and wine, why not paintings? One likes abstract expressionism, the other Biedermeier. Great.

 

[Garrincha]

It's borderline batshit crazy that here are members who own both or owned headphones and yet we should provide scientifically evidence

Maybe you remember the title of this site, just maybe.

or we pull things out of our ass

Some people seem to do just that.

when we speak about difference of these headphones in same EQ target from totally different companies, with different weight, driver size, housing, driver type and so on.

You forgot color.

I could literally make same claim about Koss Porta Pro and Utopia and ask for evidence or declaring they are same in bass in same EQ target.

Just do it.

 

[oleg87]

So far for my (admittedly non gold-plated) ears, the HD6XX with some EQ to tone-match them to one's preference can get you comfortably close in terms of aural satisfaction, if not objective metrics. I forget which one I'm wearing after a minute. But it's (obviously) kind of a silly comparison given their market positioning. If you're comfortable spending 20x for marginal audio quality improvements, the Utopia is an excellent headphone and you will find such an improvement. If you just want a very capable headphone for a reasonable price, I don't think the Utopia opens any new vistas of musical enjoyment. I don't think either headphone is perfect, and I strongly prefer both with EQ.

 

[Garrincha]

So far for my (admittedly non gold-plated) ears, the HD6XX with some EQ to tone-match them to one's preference can get you comfortably close in terms of aural satisfaction, if not objective metrics. I forget which one I'm wearing after a minute. But it's kind of a silly comparison given their market positioning. If you're comfortable spending 20x for marginal audio quality improvements, you will find such an improvement. If you just want a very capable headphone for a reasonable price, I don't think the Utopia opens any new vistas of musical enjoyment. I don't think either headphone is perfect, and I strongly prefer both with EQ.

Tonally yes, but it has not a great soundstage.

 

[PGAMiami]

Ok I got it, now you are at the point of comparing headphones and hifi products to whiskey and wine, why not paintings? One likes abstract expressionism, the other Biedermeier. Great.

So far for my (admittedly non gold-plated) ears, the HD6XX with some EQ to tone-match them to one's preference can get you comfortably close in terms of aural satisfaction, if not objective metrics. I forget which one I'm wearing after a minute. But it's kind of a silly comparison given their market positioning. If you're comfortable spending 20x for marginal audio quality improvements, you will find such an improvement. If you just want a very capable headphone for a reasonable price, I don't think the Utopia opens any new vistas of musical enjoyment. I don't think either headphone is perfect, and I strongly prefer both with EQ.

The Utopia is a luxury product, just like a Ferrari, Rolex watch or Hermes tie. Is the Corvette, Omega watch or Ferragamo tie a better value? Probably. But even putting this aside, a handful of measurements and graphs, even those done very masterfully by Amir, will only tell part of the story on any acoustic transducer, whether it’s a speaker or headphone. Acoustics and psychoacoustics are more complicated than electronics. So you have to measure and listen, and there is much more involved than equalizing to a target curve.

 

[spede]

Maybe you remember the title of this site, just maybe.

Some people seem to do just that.

You forgot color.

Just do it.

Seems like you wanted us to pat you at back and tell that your HD800 is same or just as good as Utopia, obviously you got upset when it did not go that way and you want evidence or we spread lies.

I owned HD800 for 3 years as main headphone in days back, it's great but with certain music in can come as thinner or distant sounding and thats just character it has. You have made up your mind, so this discussion has run its course.