Everything Matters vs Nothing Really Matters

[watchnerd]

Sorry I don't understand exactly, does that mean the suspended mass is no longer isolated laterally? There are 6 degrees of freedom and the vertical is not the only important one to isolate, in fact it is arguably not as important as either lateral degree of freedom.

Buh...I'm not sure and it's too early in the morning for me to do vector math....

okay, here are some pics that hopefully explain.

These are the new suspension components with ball bearing inside (the old ones had no bearing):

They live inside in the spring suspensions; the springs are coiled around the Delrin bit at the top:

The aluminum chassis hangs from the bottom of the springs. The aluminum chassis is suspended above the acrylic spider.

 

[watchnerd]

I went through the spectrum of record cleaning methods i.e. ultrasonic, steam etc. You can't really scratch the record with soft cloths as long as there is no hard dirt particles, and the labels will dry fine. As it turns out, certain ultrasonics can craze the plastic, and strong detergents aren't that great for the surface if left on too long.

I'm not sure what you mean by "craze the plastic". What do ultrasonic cleaners do that is bad?

 

[cjfrbw]

I'm not sure what you mean by "craze the plastic". What do ultrasonic cleaners do that is bad?

I think "etch"or "erosion" would be a better word than "craze", which, I believe, occurs from leaching plasticizers from a plastic material resulting in cracking. Ultrasonics (which I used in my profession to clean instruments) creates small, expanding and collapsing bubbles on the surface to agitate dirt off, which with some ultrasonics, can also disrupt the surface of materials. I remember reading warnings about it for some instrument materials, but chapter and verse are buried in a hard disc archive which I don't feel like digging out.

"
What is Cavitation Erosion?

Cavitation erosion is the effect of the part being left for too long a period in the tank. When the cavitation b

ubble collapses it generates a temperature of 5,000 degrees C and a shock wave that travels over 500 miles per hour. This will cause the cavitation to erode the part being cleaned. In lower frequencies such as 20kHz Cavitation erosion will eventually eat though the bottom of the tank. If your part has a smooth soft surface it can also be eroded by this effect. These effects are most prominent with lower frequencies.
The Photo shows a tank bottom that over time has severe cavitation damage."

http://www.tmasc.com/qa process.htm

Vinyl is not a super hard a material, but it is generally pretty tough. I have never heard of any vinyl sparing specific ultrasonic technology, but I suppose it is possible.

 

[Wombat]

FWIW: http://sanfranciscoaudiophilesociet...ons-about-cleaning-lp-records-ultrasonically/

 

[cjfrbw]

Interesting, but it IS a commercially oriented article. He at least acknowledges that records CAN be damaged by cleaning methods. After my own experiments, I tend to believe that vinyl and ultrasonics should not be mixed. The less cleaning you can get away with, the better. I am not convinced that removing the residues from the stamping process matter at all.

I think comparing a stylus through an uncleaned groove with driving on a gravel road is an entirely inappropriate analogy. It is designed to make you cringe without really appraising what is going on in any meaningful way.

 

[watchnerd]

Interesting, but it IS a commercially oriented article. He at least acknowledges that records CAN be damaged by cleaning methods. After my own experiments, I tend to believe that vinyl and ultrasonics should not be mixed. The less cleaning you can get away with, the better. I am not convinced that removing the residues from the stamping process matter at all.

I think comparing a stylus through an uncleaned groove with driving on a gravel road is an entirely inappropriate analogy. It is designed to make you cringe without really appraising what is going on in any meaningful way.

You actually did experiments around this?

That sounds fascinating....what was the method? Do you have some kind of access to an amazing microscope? Or was it sonics based?

 

[cjfrbw]

Feel free to clean records all you like. A clean groove is a happy groove.

 

[watchnerd]

Feel free to clean records all you like. A clean groove is a happy groove.

Sorry, I wasn't being sarcastic at all.

I never clean my records with anything other than a brush. I don't even own any cleaning fluids or machines.

I'm genuinely curious about your findings.

 

[cjfrbw]

Sure, it is just an opinion and you can take it with as many grains of salt as you like. After decades of vinyl use, and having a few records appearing not to recover so well from the cleaning rituals, I have become skeptical that they need to be cleaned much at all outside of some gentle brushing and wiping unless there is a good indication to do so.

Some guys say they clean their records in a machine every time they listen, which makes me feel a little sorry for the records.

 

[Sal1950]

My take on the situation would be anything you can do to make a record as clean as possible before each play would be a good thing.
Any type of junk (dust, dirt, etc) in the grove as the needle plows thru it exerting thousands of pounds per square inch of pressure has to do some irreparable damage to it. The increase in surface noise, etc, can only get worse with each play the dirtier the record is. The totally mechanical reproduction of sound via 1877 tech has a few base problems.

 

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Sure, it is just an opinion and you can take it with as many grains of salt as you like. After decades of vinyl use, and having a few records appearing not to recover so well from the cleaning rituals, I have become skeptical that they need to be cleaned much at all outside of some gentle brushing and wiping unless there is a good indication to do so.

Some guys say they clean their records in a machine every time they listen, which makes me feel a little sorry for the records.

I never had LP cleaning with a proper solution, soft bristle brush and vacuum LP cleaner make the records sound anything but better. I did not automatically clean new LPs, usually waiting for several plays. And, by carefully treating them with an anti static agent after the vacuum cleaning, I never had to clean a record in my collection a second time, unless of course I accidentally dropped it on the carpet, ugh. A carbon fiber brush could sweep most new dust away, if any, particularly on side 2 which had been in contact with the mat, as the static charge was neutralized.

I labeled my records by date as to when cleaned on the jacket to see if there was a time element in needing to repeat the cleaning and treatment. There was none I could discern. And, my careful handling of the LPs, putting them away immediately after play, etc. meant no fingerprints, smudges or excessive dust buildup.

I did not enjoy these PITA rituals at all. I would gladly have stopped, except I found them extremely worthwhile in terms of much more silent surfaces.

In my prior wet playing days, the dried fluid would leave a crackly sounding residue if played dry. But, replaying wet always solved the problem during the next play, as did my vacuum cleaning ritual for good. But, in the extremely unlikely event I would return to playing vinyl, I might well return to wet playing. LencoClean is now available again via the web. It was not much more effort than sweeping dust off the record and cleaning the stylus had been. And, wet playing kept the stylus and grooves pristinely clean during play. I can't say I noticed any deterioration from repeated wet plays.

 

[watchnerd]

Okay, after getting my cartridge re-mounted on a different headshell, I'm up to Step #12: Adjust Azimuth.

Sort of.

I set it using a bubble level, which isn't even close to a guarantee that electrical azimuth is equally balanced.

But to do that, I need to hook up a Fozgometer or digital oscilloscope.....which I don't have, because I sold my old analog one before I moved...

As for alignment, I got a custom protractor and it looks reasonably close to Baerwold. Spot on? No. But will I make it better by mucking with it? Not so sure....I'm not graceful with my fingers...

How much do I need to get this stuff really dialed in? For a massively flawed medium like vinyl, with record to record variability, how precise does the set up really need to be to get 95% of the possible sound quality?

In my youf, I don't remember anyone fussing with any of this stuff....they just played records.

 

[RayDunzl]

But to do that, I need to hook up a Fozgometer or digital oscilloscope...

Feed the signal to a soft lissajous.

WaveSpectra has one, other wares probably do too...

http://efu.jp.net/soft/ws/ws.html

Scroll, download at the bottom of the page.

 

[Arnold Krueger]

I'm still setting up and optimizing my new system, waiting for speakers to break in, messing with the turntable, rearranging furniture, etc.

But the differences in setting up my sources couldn't be more stark.

Digital:

1. Plug ethernet cable (currently Belden Cat 5 (or is it 6?), but it doesn't really matter as it's <2 meter) from Linsys Velops hotspot into Devialet
2. Add Devailet as output in Roon
3. Done.


Turntable (granted, the Gyro SE, as a suspended table is more tweaky than average):

1. Replace inverted thrust bearing with new 7/32 inch SI3N4 grade 3 ball bearing.
2. Oil bearing and fill sump reservoir
3. Replace suspension original tower decoupler with new bearing-based suspension and Delrin spacers
4. Replace suspension original metal washers with PTFE
5. Level turntable using feet ferrules
6. Weigh tonearm + cartridge + armboard. Any underage from combined 1kg weight will be added later to balance via under chassis weights.
7. Mount tonearm on arm board.
8. Mount tonearm + arm board to chassis using Delrin spacers, attaching arm board grounding cable to mounting screw such that it touches an unpainted part of the chassis. Add balancing weights.
9. Re-level turntable. Adjust suspension springs to ensure proper clearance between chassis and plinth, ensure proper 'bounce'. Re-level turntable again after adjusting springs.
10. Adjust tonearm height / VTA
11. Adjust cartridge VTF
12. Adjust cartridge azimuth
13. Check cartridge alignment vs OEM, Stevenson, Lofgren, Baerwald, or DIN alignment.
14. Adjust cartridge overhang and angle to meet alignment
15. Test platter speed
16. Adjust motor to fix speeds
17. Adjust cartridge capacitance loading

So far, I'm only up to #11....

And, being analog, all of that stuff actually matters and is measurable. There is no snake oil here. That's just how fiddly vinyl is.

Shocking, really.

Through item 4 on the second list and items 6, 7 and 8, I'd like to see audio signal measurements confirming that those changes really matter.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Through item 4 on the second list and items 6, 7 and 8, I'd like to see audio signal measurements confirming that those changes really matter.

I started working at Garrard in 1975 having been a noise and vibration research engineer in my previous job.
One of the first things they got me to do was a rumble measurement of a 401 turntable. I was familiar with the B&K measuring equipment, which I had been using for years, but was surprised to find I couldn't get a consistent measurement.
I was then shown that sitting on an oak bench in R&D on the 4th floor of a concrete building the 401 was picking up the structure borne vibration of buses driving by on the road below, the other side of the company car park.
In order to get a consistent measurement the DUT was, and needed to be, always put on an isolating table.

OTOH the extra bass you get by having a solid plinth turntable in the room is most pleasant, even though it isn't on the LP.
Knowing what I had learned at Garrard when I bought a house with a suitable layout 6 years later I set my turntable and amps up in an adjacent room so only the speakers were in the room I listened in. I am quite sure I got a more accurate transcription of the LP, I didn't like it as much though. It was a Technics SP10 with SME arm on a home made solid plinth - I forget which cartridge.