Equipment Upgrading Woes

[ninetonmantis]

Good evening (or afternoon!). I've been lurking on this sub for a bit as I gather information on components to prepare to upgrade my current system. Most of the equipment I have was given to me by my dad as he upgraded his own components over the years. Unfortunately, it's vintage equipment that only has RCA in/out. I'm currently running a PS Audio 4.6 into a PS Audio Delta 100. The speakers are Paradigm Monitor 9 v1s. I also have a Kenwood KD 500 turntable going into my pre. It's time to upgrade; its 2023. However, due to costs, I can't do it all at once.

As such, I've decided that the first upgrade will be a DAC for a number of reasons (e.g., I cannot replace the speakers right now because of an impending move and I'm ripping a lot of CDs and listening to a lot more digital music). I see three routes available:

1) I like what the Okto dac8 stereo has to offer a lot. However, as many of you know, it does not have RCA out. In order to run it properly, I would most likely have to purchase a new amplifier. I've been looking into amplifier replacement options and while I haven't picked one out, I'm looking at either a pre-built hypex or purifi model. Ideally, it would have both XLR and RCA inputs to allow me to connect the dac along with my existing pre, and switch between the two as needed.

2) The Benchmark Dac3 HGA is another option, as it has RCA in as well as out, and I could sort of use it as a pre-amp (I guess?) for the time being. However, I'm cognizant that I'll be murdering the sound quality of Dac3 either going into my pre or amp. Also, I'm also not as impressed with the digital input selection available on that model and the blinking lights in place of the okto's LCD readout is not impressive either, especially given the price difference between the Benchmark and the Okto. Furthermore, the increased cost of the Benchmark is close to the cost of a new amp.

3) Alternatively, I could purchase a new pre-amp, such as the DIY Hypex Preamp or Benchmark LA4 and either use an XLR to RCA cable for the time being into the Delta 100 for the former, or go RCA out on the latter. I understand that is not ideal, and the cost of either preamp will be at least the cost of a new amp (or significantly more in the case of the Benchmark pre).

I'm a bit confused as to where I should go from here. I've tried getting advice from my dad, but his technical knowledge is limited and his head is still stuck in the 80s and 90s (i.e., you don't need XLR, its garbage, RCA is better, buy some new BS Audio equipment, etc).

If anyone has any insight as to which of three routes laid out above, I would greatly appreciate it. More than likely, I might be missing alternative paths, and I'm more than open to any suggestions.

Thank you in advance, and happy listening!

~Paul

 

[alex-z]

The DAC makes the least difference to overall sound quality. The Okto dac8 performs well but something cheaper like a miniDSP Flex has better functionality, like room correction software, and the ability to integrate subwoofers.

For the amplifier, I would recommend going with a 2 channel Hypex NC502MP. Efficient, heaps of power, low distortion, etc. Last amp you should ever need to buy.

Not much point in replacing your pre-amp IMO. It isn't limiting the quality of your vinyl records, and there is no inherent problem with using generic RCA to XLR cables over short distances.

 

[ninetonmantis]

The DAC makes the least difference to overall sound quality. The Okro dac8 performs well but something cheaper like a miniDSP Flex has better functionality, like room correction software, and the ability the integrate subwoofers.

For the amplifier, I would recommend going with a 2 channel Hypex NC502MP. Efficient, heaps of power, low distortion, etc. Last amp you should ever need to buy.

Not much point in replacing your pre-amp IMO. It isn't limiting the quality of your vinyl records, and there is no inherent problem with using generic RCA to XLR cables over short distances.

I will have to look into the miniDSP; that may be the solution. I appreciate your input!

 

[LTig]

I second @alex-z - the DAC wil give you the least audible improvement.
You may also wait buying a power amp until after your move and then think hard about active speakers. They offer the most sound quality per $/£/¥/€.

 

[JeffS7444]

Wow! PS Audio 4.6 was on the market when I was still working part-time at a PS dealer. The power amplifier must have come out some time later, because I don't recall that one at all. Unless malfunctioning or cursed by an aura of uncool, it's probably sonically transparent-ish. Although they're fun and relatively easy to upgrade, halfway decent amps, preamps, and DACs tend to sound pretty similar.

 

[Chrispy]

Your electronics seem adequate (altho I agree with dad on the BS Audio aspect). Maybe a sub or just wait and change speakers if you want to change sound....

 

[pseudoid]

Would there be a possibility that you may want to go multi-channel or zoned outputs in the future?
Would you be considering to integrate your audio with video needs... now or in the future?

 

[ninetonmantis]

Wow, lots of great responses! Perhaps I wasn't thinking about it too clearly. I have less of a problem with the amp, but the pre-amp has it's quirks. The switches are notoriously susceptible to dust which will create a lot of noise when switching channels. Considering replacing the pre-amp started me down this path, actually. Every now and then I knock out the dust with some QR cleaner, but it's a PITA; I have to do it once a year, or more, if I have the windows open. Plus, my wife gives me a side-eye when I'm switching channels and there's a bunch of noise. Other than that, no major qualms, other than perhaps a better quality phono-pre, but that's way down the line.

However, I got to thinking about how I listen to music, and although I've always loved vinyl (despite the drawbacks), I've been purchasing a lot of CDs lately, ripping them via Apple Music, and playing them direct from my Macbook Pro with a mini-jack to RCA cable straight into the amp via RCA. I also stream a lot more now, but again, I'm using my laptop. It sounds okay, but the signal is a bit weak. I usually run the pre straight-wire, but when I'm playing digital music straight in, the volume gets set pretty high, and the mids seem to suffer. As such, I leaned towards a DAC because other than my laptop, I only have my LP player. However, as I mentioned above, the Okto I was interested in doesn't have RCA out, and the manual discourages an XLR - RCA conversion cable. Well, that led me to an amp, and blah blah blah.

Pseudoid mentioned multi-channel zones, but before I get to that point, I need to get a TV first, lol. Even if I get a TV, I'll want to maintain a proper two-channel set up, along with my vinyl rig.

Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. Maybe go speakers -> amp -> dac, unless something in my system is totally inadequate? A part of me is is itching to get SOMETHING, because when we move, we might be getting a house, and then come all the concomitant necessities of homeownership!

 

[ninetonmantis]

Wow! PS Audio 4.6 was on the market when I was still working part-time at a PS dealer. The power amplifier must have come out some time later, because I don't recall that one at all. Unless malfunctioning or cursed by an aura of uncool, it's probably sonically transparent-ish. Although they're fun and relatively easy to upgrade, halfway decent amps, preamps, and DACs tend to sound pretty similar.

I grew up with that pre. My dad had it going back as far as I can remember, and as a kid I remember trying to use it and his old school Technics CD player when I first discovered Bruce Springsteen and Buffalo Springfield (this is the early 90s). He bought the Delta 100 used a few years ago, but he ran into a pair of Martin Logans like he used to have when I was a kid, he gave it to me when he got a PS Stellar 300. I probably won't ever get rid of it, and if it gets replaced down the line, it will work its way into my office stereo!

 

[pseudoid]

... active speakers.They offer the most sound quality per $/£/¥/€.

hmmmmm...

 

[Chrispy]

Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. Maybe go speakers -> amp -> dac, unless something in my system is totally inadequate? A part of me is is itching to get SOMETHING, because when we move, we might be getting a house, and then come all the concomitant necessities of homeownership!

Room is also a great part of it, so might think about what room you'll be getting along with the mortgage.

 

[DWPress]

I had a PS Audio 6.2 Pre (without the phono stage installed) and sold it off here on ASR around Covid time. Minor regrets but all my gear is balanced now. Those switches should be pretty easy to replace, the whole circuit board is a giant plane of copper and solid.

Like others have mentioned, the DAC will change the sound of things imperceptibly if at all but if it adds functionality, like other digital inputs or a streamer, they are nice to have in the equipment stack. I too would wait until you're in the new apartment/house and know what sort of room you're going to have to deal with before a speaker purchase but if you've got money burning a hole in your pocket the Hypex will keep you happy for years. Sounds like you want to keep the 6.4 so spend some money and get it fixed so no more "side-eye"!

Edit: Sorry, brain fart, I had assumed you were using optical out of the laptop (even though you currently have no digital inputs ). A DAC with whatever functionality you need would definitely be a good investment for moving forward.

 

[alex-z]

I have less of a problem with the amp, but the pre-amp has it's quirks. The switches are notoriously susceptible to dust which will create a lot of noise when switching channels.

I'm using my laptop. It sounds okay, but the signal is a bit weak. I usually run the pre straight-wire, but when I'm playing digital music straight in, the volume gets set pretty high, and the mids seem to suffer.

Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. Maybe go speakers -> amp -> dac, unless something in my system is totally inadequate? A part of me is is itching to get SOMETHING, because when we move, we might be getting a house, and then come all the concomitant necessities of homeownership!

In that case, starting with a new phono pre-amp is a good idea. A Schiit Mani costs $150 and performs fairly well. I am not a vinyl guy myself, but this seems to be the financial sweet spot for phono pre-amps, everything more expensive is only marginally better.

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Designed and Built in Texas and California

www.schiit.com

The analog output from your Macbook would definitely benefit from being replaced by an external DAC. The internal DAC of most PC's has a relatively high noise floor, and not much output voltage. There are tons of options, even $80 stuff like the SMSL SU-1 performs really well. The miniDSP Flex I recommended earlier is more a swiss army knife that happens to include a DAC, hence the higher expense.

In terms of audible improvement, the speakers would yield the largest improvement, followed by acoustic treatment for your room. However, better electronics still have some benefit, and should easily last you 10+ years, so isn't a bad idea.

 

[LuvTheMusic]

One other thought looking into the future: will you be playing your LPs (and even CDs)? In my case, I had a fair-sized LP collection (maybe 500 albums), but found myself playing them less and less. Then our cat helped along my decision by removing the stylus from the cartridge. Around that time, I started streaming and soon realized that I wasn't playing CDs often either. You can guess where this all led: I now have no turntable and no LPs, a few dozen CDs of items that are not available on streaming, and I stream just about everything.

The point of the story is this: if you see a similar future (even without the cat part), there's not much sense in investing in the front end. A steaming device (in my case, a Node) straight into the power amp and you're all set. There could be a device for room correction in there, but that certainly won't be your current preamp.

Of course, whether you go in this direction is a purely personal decision. I bring up all this only because streaming has, for many people, really changed the audio world and prompted some significant system streamlining.

 

[JayGilb]

The switches are notoriously susceptible to dust which will create a lot of noise when switching channels.

Buy a can Deoxit D5 or some similar plastic safe contact cleaner and give your equipment switches/potentiometers a thorough cleaning.

 

[Galliardist]

Maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. Maybe go speakers -> amp -> dac, unless something in my system is totally inadequate? A part of me is is itching to get SOMETHING, because when we move, we might be getting a house, and then come all the concomitant necessities of homeownership!

As stated, it's 2023. Streaming is necessary, even for people who think it's a necessary evil. So the first thing to consider, since the speakers are going nowhere prior to any move, is what interfaces you like and don't like (for streaming, but also for internet radio if you want that), since that is the next most important thing these days. Phone? Touchscreen device? "Alexa, play..."? Will your preferred option integrate easily with that stack of ripped discs? These options make for a question people don't always seem to ask themselves when upgrading, but is now one of the most important, really. So you may be able to deal with that aspect before the move, as long as anything you buy fits into the rest of the upgrade you want.

Don't forget your wife will want to play things as well and may have different ideas.

And will you plug the TV into the system? If so, optical or ARC?

One more point to consider - if you move and particularly if you get a dedicated room, you could decide to go to multichannel and that might be a question to consider now.

Whatever you do, have some kind of target upgrade in mind, make sure it's a productive upgrade (you should be adding tangible benefits, rather than just targeting a nebulous sound quality thing) and do that before you spend anything, to avoid mistakes and dead ends.

 

[ninetonmantis]

As stated, it's 2023. Streaming is necessary, even for people who think it's a necessary evil. So the first thing to consider, since the speakers are going nowhere prior to any move, is what interfaces you like and don't like (for streaming, but also for internet radio if you want that), since that is the next most important thing these days. Phone? Touchscreen device? "Alexa, play..."? Will your preferred option integrate easily with that stack of ripped discs? These options make for a question people don't always seem to ask themselves when upgrading, but is now one of the most important, really. So you may be able to deal with that aspect before the move, as long as anything you buy fits into the rest of the upgrade you want.

Don't forget your wife will want to play things as well and may have different ideas.

And will you plug the TV into the system? If so, optical or ARC?

One more point to consider - if you move and particularly if you get a dedicated room, you could decide to go to multichannel and that might be a question to consider now.

Whatever you do, have some kind of target upgrade in mind, make sure it's a productive upgrade (you should be adding tangible benefits, rather than just targeting a nebulous sound quality thing) and do that before you spend anything, to avoid mistakes and dead ends.

Good point. That's why I haven't bought anything yet; I don't want to regret it! As for streaming, okto doesn't even sell a streaming version of their dac due to a shortage of specific raspberry pi devices. This makes the choice easier because streaming is definitely necessary. Fortunately, it hasn't supplanted my use of cds or vinyl!

 

[ninetonmantis]

I had a PS Audio 6.2 Pre (without the phono stage installed) and sold it off here on ASR around Covid time. Minor regrets but all my gear is balanced now. Those switches should be pretty easy to replace, the whole circuit board is a giant plane of copper and solid.

Like others have mentioned, the DAC will change the sound of things imperceptibly if at all but if it adds functionality, like other digital inputs or a streamer, they are nice to have in the equipment stack. I too would wait until you're in the new apartment/house and know what sort of room you're going to have to deal with before a speaker purchase but if you've got money burning a hole in your pocket the Hypex will keep you happy for years. Sounds like you want to keep the 6.4 so spend some money and get it fixed so no more "side-eye"!

Edit: Sorry, brain fart, I had assumed you were using optical out of the laptop (even though you currently have no digital inputs ). A DAC with whatever functionality you need would definitely be a good investment for moving forward.

Hmm, replacing the switches is intriguing. Do you have any suggestions as to where I would go to learn how to do that/get parts? Side note: my dad is running a 6.2; maybe I can get him to part with it...

 

[ninetonmantis]

One other thought looking into the future: will you be playing your LPs (and even CDs)? In my case, I had a fair-sized LP collection (maybe 500 albums), but found myself playing them less and less. Then our cat helped along my decision by removing the stylus from the cartridge. Around that time, I started streaming and soon realized that I wasn't playing CDs often either. You can guess where this all led: I now have no turntable and no LPs, a few dozen CDs of items that are not available on streaming, and I stream just about everything.

The point of the story is this: if you see a similar future (even without the cat part), there's not much sense in investing in the front end. A steaming device (in my case, a Node) straight into the power amp and you're all set. There could be a device for room correction in there, but that certainly won't be your current preamp.

Of course, whether you go in this direction is a purely personal decision. I bring up all this only because streaming has, for many people, really changed the audio world and prompted some significant system streamlining.

I hear you. Streaming has become very important. However, just like the movie streaming companies, I've seen stuff disappear, which has motivated me to get cds/lps of stuff that I REALLY like.

 

[DWPress]

Do you have any suggestions as to where I would go to learn how to do that/get parts?

If you're handy with an iron, just open it up and check what kind of switch it is and order suitable replacements. As to a technician, give us your general location and maybe someone can suggest someone in the region. Really should not be a difficult repair if I recall what mine looked like under the hood. Those long switches and knobs are all just for looks, standard shaft lengths.