Dutch & Dutch 8C - Firmware V2.2 (Spotify Connect)

[Massimo]

Spotify Connect is now available on the 8C's with firmware 2.2, along with many improvements!!

Release Notes D&D 8-Series Firmware 2.2

This document describes the contents and new features of firmware release 2.2 for the Dutch & Dutch 8-series products.

support.dutchdutch.com

 

[garbz]

This was an incredible Christmas present. Some bugs in the new app, but otherwise it's great to be able to stream Spotify directly without having to pay for Roon.
EDIT: No bugs in the app, design choices that were slightly unexpected but I've heard will be tweaked in future releases.

 

[flor]

This was an incredible Christmas present. Some bugs in the new app, but otherwise it's great to be able to stream Spotify directly without having to pay for Roon.

What is the connection between Spotify and Roon?

 

[garbz]

What is the connection between Spotify and Roon?

A misunderstanding on my part. I was told at some point that Roon ready devices act as a Spotify endpoint, but a quick google shows it's only Tidal and Qobuz.

 

[felbj-htd.]

Spotify Connect is now available on the 8C's with firmware 2.2, along with many improvements!!

Release Notes D&D 8-Series Firmware 2.2

This document describes the contents and new features of firmware release 2.2 for the Dutch & Dutch 8-series products.

support.dutchdutch.com

Great news, Massimo! I have a pair of brand-new D&D 8C sitting unpacked in my apartment, so I am very excited to get them upgraded and going!
Sadly, I am still waiting for a second original D&D stand!
Imagine that!
FedEx delivered one stand just fine, but its driver has already been circling rounds for several days with the other box.
It was tough for me to get a pair of the original D&D stands here in the US - it took a very long time to find and order a pair.
The dealer shipped them in separate boxes and arranged a "signature on arrival" option without consulting me - very inconvenient.
Hopefully, they won't ship the stand back to the dealer - they very well might, and this is despite several of my phone calls arranging re-routs to the nearby FedEx office!
The holiday season adds to the hiatus, of course.
Anyway: I assume you own a pair of D&D 8C's?
What is your upstream chain?
I plan to get a decent R2R DAC and wondered if I'd need a preamp for them and which one to get.
I can't find information about D&D 8C analog input impedance in their manual.
Can you kindly give your advice or steer me in the right direction?
Anyone having advice is welcome to share your thought, please!
Cheers and happy holidays!

 

[garbz]

What is your upstream chain?
I plan to get a decent R2R DAC and wondered if I'd need a preamp for them and which one to get.
I can't find information about D&D 8C analog input impedance in their manual.

I think you'll find upstream chains vary greatly with what people listen to. Personally I use them with my own home made DAC/Pre, but that's only because I also use a turntable sometimes. If I were just listening to streaming / TV I'd probably aim for something all digital. Currently the biggest downside to the 8Cs is a lack of an external easily to use volume control ala Grimm Audio and their LS1 remote. So unless you plan to stream only via Spotify / Roon you will need an external volume control.

Why are you looking for an R2R DAC? If you have some strange notion that R2R is somehow superior, even if it were note that the analogue input on the 8Cs will be converted to digital anyway, and then processed via a normal modern multibit DAC. So there's really zero benefit to throwing an R2R DAC in the chain (even less so than typically). Additionally R2R DACs rarely come with balanced outputs, which is what the input to the 8Cs.

What's the input impedance? Irrelevant. No really matching line impedances for professional gear is a relic of the 70s. Unless you're also thinking of adding a tube pre-amplifier to your R2R DAC and really shackling the performance of your system, the impedance is nothing to worry about.

Advice: If you don't have one already get a measurement mic. MiniDSP UMIK-1 is the standard. These things have very high quality DSPs in them and if you don't use this feature it's a bit like buying a Ferrari and driving it only in school zones

 

[felbj-htd.]

Thank you, garbz—this is something to think about before unpacking and breaking their NIB status.
So there is no way to use their amplification of analog signal analog form without implementing ADC? This looks like a restrictive design decision. Let me ask you a question about their network intake: is it used for DSP adjustments only, or has some other uses?

 

[garbz]

Correct there is no way to bypass their analoge to digital conversion, but this is not restrictive. I'd argue this is the future of audio. In the digital domain you can do all sorts of amazing filtering both to suit speaker design (perfect digital crossovers, perfect time alignment, tweak driver response), but also integration into the room. And these days with excellent ADC / DACs that are effectively transparent I see no reason not to go this route other than to appease analogue traditionalists (one of whom saw my setup and balked at the idea of playing a vinyl that gets digitised as part of the audio chain ). I honestly wouldn't worry about their NIB status. It would be a real shame to not give them a go. I cannot praise these speakers more highly.

The network connection offers a few uses:

• Setup of speakers (you need to adjust parameters such as distance from walls as this affects the bass time alignment - and thus tightness)
• Setup of speakers (you can optionally create profiles for room correction, and for what D&D call "voicing" which is a final EQ applied after everything else, which may sound strange but its good if you use them with a TV for instance, where I for example set the "TV" profile to have the subs turned down a bit while I watch action movies at night, but also I use it to set the DSPs to the less accurate low-latency mode.
• It allows you to do volume control (yes I said there's no external volume control but there is app based volume control)
• It allows you to use them for Roon and now Spotify streaming.
• Firmware updates.

So that is one thin you should consider. It's a shame these speakers don't have wireless, but network design does come into it in this case. Fortunately our cable modem and wifi router are in our living room

 

[felbj-htd.]

Thank you, garbz!
You gave a very comprehensive explanation - I appreciate it.
If memory serves me well, in his Stereophile Magazine review, John Atkinson tested them with his DirectStream DAC and some preamp.
Have you happened to read it?
Do you know their own DAC parameters for PCM or possible DSD play?
I can't read this anywhere.
As for streaming use: does D&D provide any apps for streaming, or does the user needs to use the Roon app?
You have mentioned Spotify.
Do you use it with your 8Cs?
Is Spotify, and possibly other streaming services, supported natively?
Can I use the Spotify app on a tablet or PC so it founds the 8cs on the LAN, or do I need to use an external streamer box?
How it works exactly?
Which devices are working well with the 8Cs?

 

[Purité Audio]

You certainly can use a preamp/dac with the 8Cs, just set them to ‘analogue’ ( there are two gain structures to choose from).
You can steam with Roon, the 8Cs will appear there as an audio device and now with Spotify connect. streaming is the default.
You just connect the 8Cs to your LAN open Roon/spotify that’s it.
Keith

 

[garbz]

Yeah I did recall the Stereophile review. I often hold it up as an example of the poor journalistic integrity of Stereophile (they published a known faulty graph on page 2 of the review which is just poor form especially considering they mentioned they found the issue and re-measured in the same review itself).

To your question:
Yeah I saw he listened to it with a DirectStream DAC. I have a streamer with a built in DAC in my system as well connected to the 8Cs analogue. My point was more not to forget that a standard multi-bit DAC exists in 8Cs, so you're not going to get any benefit (perceived or otherwise, we can leave that to another discussion) by using anything like an R2R DAC or a NoS DAC, you can't escape the internal DAC.

The 8Cs digital input support up to 192kHz 24bit PCM. Note the input is AES3 so you'll need an S/PDIF to AES converter if your digital source doesn't have AES3 already. These are after all designed with a studio in mind. Of note is that regardless of what you feed it, internally the result will be resampled to 48kHz as that is how the filtering system is setup (this was IIRC also called out in the stereophile review since the frequency response graph showed a brick wall at 24kHz).

D&D provide no apps of their own. The speakers show up as a Roon endpoint, and a Spotify Connect device. You still need Roon core (which will give you the ability to stream your library, Tidal, or Qobuz as far as I am aware). The Spotify setup works as you first thought, with a PC or mobile phone somewhere on your LAN. The speakers show up as a Spotify Connect device on your network. I use Spotify with my speakers. But that feature has been on the market for a whole 2 days now

What works well? Honestly anything. The speakers have only a single XLR input but that one is very versatile. It can be set for low-level input (for when you use a single ended source like a preamp / unbalanced DAC with an adapter cable), a high-level input (for when you use a balanced source with proper professional equipment levels like an audio interface from a PC or a good balanced DAC), or AES3 input (for a digital audio workstation, or an S/PDIF to AES3 converter).

Personally I use them with my home made Integrated DAC/Preamp. Though I'm floating a new project for 2023 to turn this into an all digital system (basically made a digital -> digital input selector / volume control)

 

[Martijn Mensink]

Firmware 2.3 has been released: https://support.dutchdutch.com/release-notes-d-d-8-series-firmware-2-3/

The biggest changes are bug fixes in REW interfacing and an option to set a fixed volume level for the physical input (AES3 or analog), in order to use it with an external volume-controlled device.

 

[symphara]

Firmware 2.3 has been released: https://support.dutchdutch.com/release-notes-d-d-8-series-firmware-2-3/

The biggest changes are bug fixes in REW interfacing and an option to set a fixed volume level for the physical input (AES3 or analog), in order to use it with an external volume-controlled device.

Halleluiah! No idea why this isn't a base feature for all active speakers. This alone puts them on my upgrade list. Any suggestions for a prettier stand? The one they sell is just hideous.

 

[Martijn Mensink]

Try Liedtke Design stands. They look nice and are competitively priced: https://www.facebook.com/speakersta...u4PYPfuffxV8GLhSnAkoWAMXq9q6xJuvtU4Njm6CCffLl