Does a musician's lack of technical ability ever get in the way of your enjoyment?

[Blake Klondike]

Jazz pianist Tommy Flanagan apparently struggled with the mediant progressions in Coltrane's "Giant Steps". I find this analysis surprising because chromatic mediants are the lingua franca of Romantic piano music. Perhaps they are just tough to improvise over.

I have heard him say that was one of his worst dates as a recording pianist, but it sounds great, doesn't it? I think he was likely just not as comfortable with Coltrane's new tonalities as with the standards, and wished he could play as effortlessly as he would on "Stella By Starlight", etc.

 

[Blake Klondike]

Sometimes the lack of technical ability can be exploited as a form of amusment/entertainment instead:

I am not a musician myself, so my own bar is much lower.

Madonna is a great example-- she sounds really bad on her stuff! But, on the other hand, it is very cool that she is learning. She has a teacher and takes weekly lessons and everything! Makes me think of Dylan playing piano now through all of his concerts. It's not so bad, but he should hire a pianist-- I was bored to tears with the jammy way the songs were arranged on his tours a couple years ago. If you think about how Daniel Lanois or T-Bone Burnett or Van Dyke Parks would arrange that set for Carnegie hall PBS DVD, or something, we are really missing out with them winging it over Dylan's piano.

 

[Blake Klondike]

I think it was the latter. A reaction against guitar solo overload in the 1980's which hung over music for about 15 years.

I heard Eliot Smith say that he was afraid to walk in to a set in the early 90s with an acoustic guitar, because there was such a reactionary hatred for that style that he was afraid some drunk was going to punch him out! When I was in a band in 90-92 we would get people (always young grunge guys) whose first question was "do you have guitar solos?" and if the answer was "yes", they would leave. People have strange ideas about what constitutes authenticity.

 

[Blake Klondike]

Rick Beato (excellent YouTube channel!) is an excellent source of entertainment and education. He makes a great distinction between people with incredible instincts and those with excellent training and skill. For example, he points out that Kurt Cobain is an incredibly melody writer, and works within his technical limitations really well. In "Smells Like Teen Spirit" the guitar solo is basically a recapitulation of the melody - a perfect choice for a guitar solo.

For me, I reach for the skip button when an act is outside either of these overlapping spheres of "excellent innate/intutive" and "technically skilled and theoretically deep" - that's when it gets boring and bland to me. Nearly all of my favorite bands have virtuosity from one or the other camp, and sometimes both.

In composed music, I am with the folks who find boring interpretations far more distracting than less technically proficient ones. By contrast, Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique has never recorded something that I'd not listen to happily - never a dull note! I can still enjoy a community orchestra playing something imperfectly if they can keep it together and give it a sense of performance and immediacy.

Great explication of your criteria-- I totally agree. And you are totally right about 'Teen Spirit'-- Nirvana killed it on so much of that heavy stuff. I think it was Dave Grohl, in retrospect, too. Have you heard Cobain say he was trying to write a stadium rocker like "More Than A Feeling" w/ "Teen Spirit"? Interesting to think about whether he succeeded or not.

What you are saying about Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique makes me really curious to hear their stuff. What would you recommend?

 

[Blake Klondike]

You can just come out and say you're talking The White Stripes, it won't make anyone who likes good music mad.

I don't know if this is a joke or not, but they do indeed suck. They can't play their way out of a paper bag, but Jack White, whose music sucks, has a really profound and deep knowledge of and appreciation for music history. He's the kind of guy who can tell you who did the string arrangements on Patsy Cline records, or what kind of amp Bo Diddley played through in the fifties, or whatever. That is totally great-- He obviously eats, sleeps and breathes music-- I just don't care for the music he makes. If you contrast that with Michael Penn or Andy Partridge, they are just as deep and wide, but their ears and hands are so much better, not to mention their writing.

 

[Blake Klondike]

Hmm interesting question.
Honestly, I am not versed enough with all instruments in order to hear many mistakes in the performances. I do hear them in Flutes and sometimes pianos (depending on how busy the music is), because I play *coughs* learn both instruments myself. It never bothered me if the rest of the performance is enjoyable.

Every flute player knows that occasionally you crack a note esp. in live settings.

Most vocals though make me go: "Oh man, just put a sock in it!". Far too many people feel the need to sing when their voice is pretty ... well... untrained and/or untalented.

I listen to instrumental music mostly.

As someone who doesn't play winds or brass at all, I wonder sometimes if I am missing bad technique and stuff that would bug a good player on those instruments. Like, on The Band records, they learned to play those instruments just well enough for John Simon to be able to arrange horn parts that they could play, because he wanted a cohesive sound. I wonder if horn players listen to that and cringe...

 

[Blake Klondike]

unfortunatly classic music is performed lifeless nowadays. check this video

performances back then had much more "swing", more life. almost like popular music. And I am sure this music would be more popular if "played more popular". most performances nowadays are so heavie

The question of how composed music was performed on different recordings from different eras is a huge one-- as somebody just trying to hear symphony X or Y, I am always aware that I may not like this performance, but I may like another from 20 years before or after. It's tough when there is no definitive version, like there is of "Runaway" by Dion, or whatever.

This may be a subject for another thread, but I also love the way certain instruments were recorded at certain times (or likely it may also be the tone of that generation/region's players) Like, I really, really like the tone and the vibe of the Budapest String Quartet-- the richness and dark timbre of their recordings. It makes my head spin, because I know there is too much stuff out there to ever hear it all, and I know there have to be analagous performances of every piece ever composed, for all ensembles!

 

[Blake Klondike]

Championed by Frank Zappa!

Outsider art and music is valued precisely because it has some truly sui generis quality that doesn't conform to normal ideas of competency in matters of technique or psychology.

Great example! He is an example of somebody whose vision and sincerity make his stuff a joy to listen to. Hell, I used to listen to the Wild Man Fischer record a lot too, and that dude couldn't do anything. I just liked his concept.

 

[Blake Klondike]

That's the billion dollar question: artists that have a knack for catchy melodies and riffs are so rare. It's hard enough to compose a "one hit wonder" in one's lifetime, but album after album of catchy tunes? Unbelievable.

That's the way I feel about Bowie too-- from 69-79 he did one brilliant record after another. And re: the Beatles technical ability-- It is kind of hard even to separate anything technical from so much of their stuff, because they were the template for so many of the sounds they made. Like, Lennon was famous for not being able to play in time, and the band had to learn to work around all his extra beats and measures and stuff. But I don't think the songs suffer for that fact, or that it is even apparent a lot of the time! For instance, I understand he did not know "All You Need Is Love" or "Across The Universe" weren't in straight 4/4 but they sound right the way he did them, so it is never going to matter to anybody.

 

[Blake Klondike]

On the one hand, a species of slumming, cool because it's kinda downmarket. On the other hand, time takes time. This is a band I knew of by reputation, but for all that time, some 40 years or so, I never heard them. Meanwhile, all sorts of "Alternative" sounds have emerged since this LP came out. I can hear tributes to this asymmetrical song construction in all sorts of "Hip" Alt bands, Shonen Knife springs to mind. I can understand why Frank Zappa grooved to these sounds, this is really a lot more sophisticated rhythmically than I anticipated, everyone playing their own time signature without concern for anyone else's meter. The absolute inverse of "swing".

And now I have an impulse to rip my headphones off, always a good sign for the "avant-garde" stuff. This properly belongs in Captain Beefheart territory, but as performed by the "primative natives" in situ, said environment being in the garage down your suburban street. For your dancing and dining pleasure.

Is this about the Shags record? That really is a fascinating phenomenon. There's a great documentary about them on youtube where they talk about their writing and recording process. They didn't even know how their instruments were supposed to be tuned, or the first thing about the conventions of how to play them, so they literally just made up whatever they thought sounded good. An important consideration for me with them too, is that they played those songs exactly the same way every time-- that music is composed. And by kids, too!

 

[Blake Klondike]

Interesting. I would have said the opposite. I think grunge was the last stop for guitar solos before they stopped. Less of the excesses of the 80s, but of the top tier:

Pearl Jam - Mike McCreedy - top notch shredding
Alice in Chains - Jerry Cantrell - super heavy solos
Sound Garden - Kim Thayil are fairly obtuse solos but pretty hip
Nirvana - Kurt Cobain’s arguably the weakest solos but still wrote them into songs

I’d say this crop of bands was the last to properly write guitar solos in... they’re pretty much gone by the late 90s from mainstream.

Really interesting thoughts-- because these guys all grew up listening to Kiss, Sabbath, Bad Company, Metallica, Ted Nugent, BOC, etc.-- I always thought they were just doing their own take on the heavy music they grew up on. Also, a lot of the vibe surrounding the grunge scene was marketing and lifestyle nonsense from the labels and Mtv. Everybody I knew back then liked those records, but knew the marketing around them was all jive BS. The four bands you mentioned don't even sound anything alike, except that they are all guitar-based rock bands, but they got put in the grunge section at the record stores for marketing purposes.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I wonder if horn players listen to that and cringe...

Depends, if the horn player knows that the musician is not an actual horn player himself but rather went the extra mile to provide the sound of a real instrument for the mix instead of relying on VST samples, he might be a lot more forgiving in regards to the perfection of technique.

 

[bogart]

What you are saying about Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique makes me really curious to hear their stuff. What would you recommend?

Their recording of Beethoven’s Fifth is a great one. If you like that, all nine are excellent.

 

[Sonny1]

Thanks for this-- very interesting perspective. I am also excited to listen to the Marina examples you posted and see how they relate. I think you are tapping into precisely the question I am exploring with your analysis of her songs.

Here is a great example of a technically inept guitarist whose stuff has literally changed the face of music, and millions of lives:

His guitar is not in tune, he is strumming up when he is supposed to be strumming down, his rhythm is weak, etc. Just one problem after another. I can't stand to listen to it because his playing is bad enough that I can't become immersed in the song. I would much rather hear Leadbelly do it.

But he was the perfect guitar player for Nirvana, which is all his job required of him. I know a bunch of people who saw them play in my home town before they hit it big and they all said it was the most powerful concert experience of their lives.

This Ry Cooder song would be an example of someone doing a similar thing, but in a way that appeals to me a lot more:

I am a professional guitarist/songwriter/teacher, so I get to engage with this stuff every day.

Man, you picked a good one. Ry Cooter is so talented and such a pleasure to watch/hear especially acoustic slide. In fairness, there are not many guys who can look good next to Ry. Nirvana unplugged was a bit of a fluke because Nirvana never pretended to be a great acoustic band. Until this performance, and afterwards they were a hard Rock, Grunge electric band. Cobain wasn’t the best player but he was good enough to propel the band (with the songs he wrote and sang) to worldwide success. Comparing their guitar playing is like comparing Bob Dylan’s vocals to Robert Plant or Freddie Mercury. For the record, I would listen to Ry Cooter play guitar over nearly anyone. He’s an amazing guitarist, one of my favorites. That clip you shared was a great example. Good stuff.

 

[Blake Klondike]

Man, you picked a good one. Ry Cooter is so talented and such a pleasure to watch/hear especially acoustic slide. In fairness, there are not many guys who can look good next to Ry. Nirvana unplugged was a bit of a fluke because Nirvana never pretended to be a great acoustic band. Until this performance, and afterwards they were a hard Rock, Grunge electric band. Cobain wasn’t the best player but he was good enough to propel the band (with the songs he wrote and sang) to worldwide success. Comparing their guitar playing is like comparing Bob Dylan’s vocals to Robert Plant or Freddie Mercury. For the record, I would listen to Ry Cooter play guitar over nearly anyone. He’s an amazing guitarist, one of my favorites. That clip you shared was a great example. Good stuff.

I agree 100 percent-- I remember seeing Nirvana play "Heart-Shaped Box" on TV at the time and I thought it was as good as Led Zeppelin or Sabbath or any other heavy band. When he was writing his own stuff, he was *really* powerfully good.

Unplugged was a surprisingly cool show, in that they got people to stretch out in ways that they might not normally have done. Kind of like "Live From Darryl's House" did. I remember making my whole family leave the room and shut up when REM and Clapton were on.

And every hifi store I have ever been in has had a copy of "Clapton Unplugged" as a reference disc for acoustic guitars. That record is out of this world.

 

[bogart]

And every hifi store I have ever been in has had a copy of "Clapton Unplugged" as a reference disc for acoustic guitars. That record is out of this world.

Just as long as I don’t have to hear Hotel California in a HiFi shop one more time.

 

[wgb113]

Music is an art form so give me artistry over technical ability any day of the week.

To return to The Beatles, I’d take the four of them and their lack of ability over Paul’s backing band playing those same songs.

I can see classical fans gravitating towards technical however.

 

[beefkabob]

I find the shaggs more interesting than the guitar duo there. The duo plays boring technical and endlessly monotonous guitar. The shaggs have a song where I'm always looking for the next bad decision or mistake. Non stop fascination. Omg there's a guitar solo at the end! Epic!

I used to dislike the violent femmes, thinking them hacks. Then I heard them play live and hit every discordant note exactly.

 

[Ivanovich]

Music is an art form so give me artistry over technical ability any day of the week.

To return to The Beatles, I’d take the four of them and their lack of ability over Paul’s backing band playing those same songs.

I can see classical fans gravitating towards technical however.

This confuses me. I can’t differentiate the technical from the artistry.

Music is organized sounds that should convey some sense or emotion. You need to be sufficiently proficient on the instrument to make it play the way the composer (which maybe is the player) meant it to sound. Including the feel. If the musicians are good enough, most people won’t hear/recognize the “mistakes” they made compared to the musicians’ own standard for what a great performance would be.

On the other hand, a midi programmed keyboard will produce a perfect reproduction of a basic music scroll as written, but it won’t deliver what a true artist can in their performance. Sometimes the deviations in time are the very thing that brings some of the emotion in, but it should be intentional.

For me, it’s a clear YES. A lack of technical proficiency definitely gets in the way of my enjoyment of the music.

I think how much it gets in the way depends on how much you know and care about the piece and how you think it should sound, and how far the performance has deviated from that.

If you like music that sounds sloppy and was meant to be sloppy, then I assume it would not be an issue.

 

[wgb113]

This confuses me. I can’t differentiate the technical from the artistry.

Music is organized sounds that should convey some sense or emotion. You need to be sufficiently proficient on the instrument to make it play the way the composer (which maybe is the player) meant it to sound. Including the feel. If the musicians are good enough, most people won’t hear/recognize the “mistakes” they made compared to the musicians’ own standard for what a great performance would be.

On the other hand, a midi programmed keyboard will produce a perfect reproduction of a basic music scroll as written, but it won’t deliver what a true artist can in their performance. Sometimes the deviations in time are the very thing that brings some of the emotion in, but it should be intentional.

For me, it’s a clear YES. A lack of technical proficiency definitely gets in the way of my enjoyment of the music.

I think how much it gets in the way depends on how much you know and care about the piece and how you think it should sound, and how far the performance has deviated from that.

If you like music that sounds sloppy and was meant to be sloppy, then I assume it would not be an issue.

Who are we to deem an artist's art to be sloppy?