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Do loudspeakers need to image precisely?

hvbias

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Conversely, as has been noted above, most live music venues present a listening experience that is technically inferior to home listening with recorded music. The emotional effect of live music might exceed that of recorded music. But a live venue is going to have virtually no "sweet spot"; and most indoor live venues for amplified popular music are too loud, highly distorted, with poor frequency balance and dreadful acoustics.

These are all assumptions for pop music.

Good symphony halls have loads of engineering in them to sound good. And there very much are sweet spots or better places to listen to an orchestra and/or soloist compared to others since the music is not amplified and instead relying on the acoustic power of the instruments themselves, which follow all the laws of physics and frequency wave length/directionality.

Hearing a piano concerto from the sides of the hall will be a poor experience compared to hearing it towards the front/middle in the center.
 

Snarfie

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When I go to a live, unamplified concert, I don't get precise audio imaging, but I do have precise visual imaging, so I can see who's playing what, and that corrects or creates the right audible impression. At home, in stereo I don't have the visual clues, so do need precise imaging so I can 'see' the performers in a correct perspective. That's why mono isn't as satisfying as stereo, and I find myself buying more SQ encoded LPs. As flawed as that technology was, it does give a degree of ambience lacking in stereo, and totally absent in mono. I suppose I ought to go 5.1 or 7.1, but finding space for two large loudspeakers is hard enough, four even more difficult, and 5 or 7 impossible, so 4.0 it is.

I've gone to a lot of trouble to ensure my 'speakers image tightly, so it's important to me.

S
For alsmost a 1/2 year i uses roomcorrection software. I played some day's ago a old DVD (5.1 stereo) from Incognito a great live recording for the first time with roomcorrection. It was already great whitout roomcorrection. But than (i realy can dream this DVD) the roomcorrection was on Instruments and vocals total acoustics changed the atmosphere so much it was suddenly balanced high mids and lows. Beause the music it is visualised how can i say it you can feel the dimension of the room way better than without roomcorrection. The involment is now way better more intimate.
 
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tmtomh

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These are all assumptions for pop music.

Good symphony halls have loads of engineering in them to sound good. And there very much are sweet spots or better places to listen to an orchestra and/or soloist compared to others since the music is not amplified and instead relying on the acoustic power of the instruments themselves, which follow all the laws of physics and frequency wave length/directionality.

Hearing a piano concerto from the sides of the hall will be a poor experience compared to hearing it towards the front/middle in the center.

No disagreement with what you say here overall. But even a well-engineered opera house for acoustic classical music is going to have a tiny sweet spot, for exactly the reason your piano concerto example illustrates. Some patrons will of course be able to sit in the sweet spot, and I suppose in an unusually well-designed hall that's also a small venue, then proportionally a larger number of folks will get to sit in or near the sweet spot. But for any decent-sized venue, by definition most patrons won't be sitting in the sweet spot.
 

MattHooper

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I confess some bafflement when I encounter the common refrain "live music doesn't soundstage/image." Because for me it sure as hell does.

I've been interested in the comparison of live vs reproduced sound for as long as I can remember and it's become a decades long habit for me to close my eyes at some point whenever I'm listening to live music sources. I take an inventory "how is this similar to and how does this depart from the experience of listening to similar instruments through a sound system?"

Putting aside other concerns, I usually find that live sound sources "image." That is, whether I'm in the presence of a friend or 3 playing instruments, or if I encounter street musicians, or if I'm among a live jazz band, or if I'm at the symphony I ALWAYS perceive imaging/soundstaging/directionality to the sound sources. I mean...we have two hears for a reason and they do quite a good job for picking up the physical orientation of sound sources.

Admittedly when it comes to classical music the degree to which image specificity occurs is going to be influenced by things like the seating position relative to the musicians. I tend to prefer closer seating as I enjoy the more vivid individual instrumental timbres, and the scale of the spread of the orchestra up closer. When I close my eyes I can very easily pinpoint where each section or individual soloist is in the "soundstage."
(And the fact I enjoy closer seating is no doubt why I have less problem than some in regards to close mic'd or spotilt micing in orchestral music).

But I have also many times had seats in other parts of concert halls - mid hall, back hall, balcony. And though, yes, imaging becomes less precise it does not to my ears become some indistinct glom of sound. I can still locate the sections and soloists.

I also agree with those who mention that, to a degree, precise imaging can make up for the lack of visual cues that we get when watching live music, where the sound is more effortlessly mapped to where our visual system has placed the players. In that way, audio imaging is a bit of a fudge toward a sense of realism by getting more of the "gestalt" of the live experience, where we can easily locate the source of sounds. (Though, again, I still find unamplified music to image in of itself).

I personally find imaging adds to the experience of an audio system. It's one of the reasons I want to sit down in the sweet spot in the first place, rather than listen off axis or as background music.

In fact I find imaging for electronic music (which I love) to be just as or more compelling. There's some really fun, crazy stuff that goes on with electronic music in terms of setting up atmospheres, and playing with space and imagines. My current speakers (Thiels) have a particular level of precision and density with imaging and when I play far out electronic music the weird synthetic drums or bleeps, blips or various synth generated sounds seem to magically "appear" in formations around the speakers. This palpable/visual sensation sometimes gives me the feeling like little alien visitors have just descended in to my room to perform for me. I love it.

That said, as I view a sound system as primarily a music-delivery system, soundstaging/imaging in of itself isn't enough to make me enjoy the sound. I really need to hear a beguiling tonal quality with presence and dynamics that allow the music to move me. But so long as those are fulfilled, I really do like great imaging/soundstaging as part of the bargain.

Like many of us with a good sound system, I've played demos for various friends and acquaintances (who were interested). They often look afterward like they've seen a ghost. Recently when I played a portion of Bernard Herrmann's Taxi Driver for a musician friend and he reacted to the apparent "realism" of the listening experience. "It was like I was in the studio watching the musicians perform!" I think the soundstaging and imaging plays an important role in leaving that impression.
 

Daverz

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I also find the idea that live music doesn't have imaging to be perplexing as I've had the same experience in the concert hall. You can hear imaging in the concert hall if you close your eyes.
 

Juhazi

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To sum it up, I find hifi freaks' imaging etc. search absurd. Recorded music is an artefact and illusion always, and always different view of the producing team. Personally I am more interested in spectral balance and how the speakers and the room work together to give pleasant listening experience.

I listened to my hometown big band yesterday, behind the mixing desk. Singer and instruments were miked and played in stereo with PA speakers. Image and localization was quite diffuse, but this time balance between instruments was very good and this is a rather easy hall I guess. Piano was too bright however. Highest spl was 96dB, average around 80. Most energy was between 100-2000Hz. I have started to suffer from pollen allergy and couldn't hear cymbals hardly at all.
jbb.jpg
jbbmix.jpg
 
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MattHooper

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To sum it up, I find hifi freaks' imaging etc. search absurd.

That disparaging comment seems simply to be a flat refusal to interact with the reasons some have given for enjoying imaging.
Wouldn't it be more accurate...and charitable...for you to have writtenL "Imaging isn't important to me?"


Recorded music is an artefact and illusion always,

Of course it is. And illusions can be pleasant, even thrilling. Ever watch a movie?

and always different view of the producing team.

And in some cases the media producer can seek to capture or reproduce an event more accurately than in other cases. And in some cases, the media producer/artist can build up, by means of a series of "artificial choices" something that gives a greater impression of reality. That's how art/illusion works.

Personally I am more interested in spectral balance and how the speakers and the room work together to give pleasant listening experience.

Fine. I think the vast majority of people who enjoy imaging also care about spectral balance (or at least that the tone/timbre sounds good to their ears).

But why is it ok for YOU to enjoy a nice spectral balance because it gives you a pleasnt listening experience, where you claim it is "absurd" for someone to find imaging to be pleasing or compelling? Reproduced sound is all an illusion. It's silly to pick out only one part of the illusion as being somehow valid or virtuous while denigrating the pleasures others find in another part of the illusion.
 

Sal1950

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But why is it ok for YOU to enjoy a nice spectral balance because it gives you a pleasnt listening experience, where you claim it is "absurd" for someone to find imaging to be pleasing or compelling? Reproduced sound is all an illusion. It's silly to pick out only one part of the illusion as being somehow valid or virtuous while denigrating the pleasures others find in another part of the illusion.
That then begs the question, why bother with stereo when a good mono system would answer the call?
I had a couple great mono systems for music in my work shops since the stereo aspect was not important while moving around.
But stereo brings that aspect of imaging and realism to the plate when seated in the sweet spot and adds so much to the illusion of "being there". A good multich rig can do even better. ;)
 

Juhazi

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Matt, now you picked my point too seriously! While it is absurd (in my view), I want to let all flowers blossom.

Just between the two of us, I have many hifi-friends who are extremely picky about imaging and some even use synergy horns to achieve it and to overcome the room effects! They are obsessed about sitting in the specified spot and one has even nailed a wire on the ceiling to find that spot easily again!
 

MattHooper

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Matt, now you picked my point too seriously! While it is absurd (in my view), I want to let all flowers blossom.

Just between the two of us, I have many hifi-friends who are extremely picky about imaging and some even use synergy horns to achieve it and to overcome the room effects! They are obsessed about sitting in the specified spot and one has even nailed a wire on the ceiling to find that spot easily again!

Ok, cool, it's hard to know on the internet how serious someone is being, and there is no lack of audiophiles who think other audiophile concerns are nuts :)

Personally I'm always aware of my glass house. I'm not going to critique the pursuit of another audio hobbyist; almost anyone who ends up posting in forums like these are already looking "obsessive" to people who don't have a similar interest level in audio gear/music.

As I said, for me it's tone and other concerns first when it comes to enjoying music through an audio system. But I never really tire of that additional kick of imaging. It always feels like something of a magic show when I fire up the first track, and musical images just "appear" between and around the speakers in an apparent 3D space.

And it also often aids a sense of verisimilitude when I want that. Not long ago I was listening to a particularly natural-sounding recording - An Elizabethan Tribute to Nick Drake - a tribute to the folkie Nick Drake done in an Elizabethan music style. A weird concept but somehow quite pleasant. The recording *sounds* like a very natural recording of a small group in a particular space. Played through my speakers (especially my MBL speakers) with the lights down or eyes closed, the impression of listening in to a specific hall to real people singing and playing instruments borders on the uncanny. It's almost effortless to give in to the illusion. And it doesn't matter if the illusion was brought about by micing techniques that captured accurately the position of the performers and the acoustics, or if it was brought about by manipulation. In either case, the result is a sense of reality, greatly aided by the impression of 3D space/acoustic signature/placement of performers.

In fact I just googled the group and found a performance on youtube:

Pink Moon & Horn - Nick Drake / Ensemble Phoenix Munich: Requiem for a Pink Moon

And, without having seen it before, that is almost exactly the impression the reproduction my sound system rendered in my mind of that group playing.
 

FrantzM

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Hi

I was about to write something dismissing the idea of imaging in Live music... most live music. The thing is most interesting if we accept the notion that recorded music is a construct. It is a pale imitation of the real thing at several levels. I have come to think having read the passionate replies of MattHooper that it is a useful construct.
When we go to a classical concert , we possess several notion on what we are about to experience. Helped by our eyes. We construct a scene. We see it and know that the tympani is in the back, Violas on one side violins on another ... etc.. instruments have a place in space ... We don't expect the tympani to be in the front next to the conductor for example ... We then associate what we hear with where we know it should come from, This is done unconsciously and it is a part of the concert-going experience. In reality the sound does come as a a big blop but we perform some mental filtering/processing to assign a direction/position to the sound/signature of individual instruments of interest. A bit of electronic manipulation to replace the (absent) visual clues help our enjoyment. If it is in the signal, the better speaker must reproduce it.
 

Snarfie

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Personally I am more interested in spectral balance and how the speakers and the room work together to give pleasant listening experience.
Precies also my point. Since my room is more or less treated with absorptions panals
incombination with room correction software i can hear now all information in balance. Before Abby Road from the beatles sounded (because of my untreated reflections see picture) not in balance eventualy causing listning fatigue. Basicly the lower frequencies influencing the bass was over powerd by high frequencies. Now with a more or less flat freqency highs, mids an lows (the bass of Paul is now ampified as it shoud) are in balance now which create a better image an way less listning fatigue.
NLSNGYH.png
 
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Duke

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Once the rear wave [of a dipole] bounces off a wall and reflects forward it isn't reverse phase any more.

It's really intimidating to contemplate disagreeing with someone whose moniker is "Blumlein"...

I do not think that a wall bounce inverts the phase of a reflection. If that were the case, then moving a monopole (omni-in-the-bass-region) speaker up against the wall would increase the amount of cancellation from the out-of-phase reflection in the bass region. But the opposite is what happens, bass is reinforced by reflections from adjacent walls, consistent with the phase not changing. (However a bit further up the spectrum there will be a cancellation dip at the frequency where the reflection path length is equal to one-half wavelength).

Likewise, if reflection reversed phase, in-room standing waves would not exist because the back-and-forth reflections would very quickly cancel one another out.

I realize these arguments are not based on principles of physics or acoustics, but on observation and extrapolation, so I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
 

RayDunzl

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I do not think that a wall bounce inverts the phase of a reflection.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Sound/reflec.html

"When sound waves in air (pressure waves) encounter a hard surface, there is no phase change upon reflection. That is, when the high pressure part of a sound wave hits the wall, it will be reflected as a high pressure, not a reversed phase which would be a low pressure."

"For string waves at the ends of strings there is a reversal of phase."
 

Duke

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Wasn't trying to do a "gotcha"!

And the information about reflections at the end of strings in Ray's post is news to me! Trying to wrap my head around the implications. I'm guessing that the energy reflected back from the outer edge of a woofer surround approximates the "string" condition, and is therefore out-of-phase.
 

Blumlein 88

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Wasn't trying to do a "gotcha"!

And the information about reflections at the end of strings in Ray's post is news to me! Trying to wrap my head around the implications. I'm guessing that the energy reflected back from the outer edge of a woofer surround approximates the "string" condition, and is therefore out-of-phase.

What I had in mind is something from using panel speakers. The backwave is out of phase. With certain spacing from the rear wall, the reflected rear wave can bounce back and reinforce the front wave over a narrow frequency range rather than canceling it. It is a comb filter effect, and only works to help on the low end of such speakers just a little bit.

I should have known this as sound waves are longitudinal pressure fluctuations. Waves on a string are transverse waves and do reflect. And way back years ago I was involved in demonstrating the difference in a physics class. So I should be embarrassed to have mixed it up.

https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/waves/Lesson-1/Categories-of-Waves
https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/sound/Lesson-1/Sound-as-a-Longitudinal-Wave
 

phoenixdogfan

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Do concert halls create the kinds of images found on high end audio systems? Unquestionably not. But bear in mind that what's put into a stereo recording is really not true to the concert hall experience. The closest facsimile, probably, were the RCA Living Stereo and the Mercury Living Presence which utilized 2 and 3 microphones in the concert hall itself. Almost all modern recording are multimiked which will create spot lighted images.

I myself like well defined images on a hi fi soundstage, provided it's not achieved by bumping up uper midrange/ lower treble which tends to create an "etched" quality to the image.

In short, spotlighted images truly are baked into the stereo recording process in almost all instances, and, as such, should be rendered by an accurate system.
 

Duke

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What I had in mind is something from using panel speakers. The backwave is out of phase. With certain spacing from the rear wall, the reflected rear wave can bounce back and reinforce the front wave over a narrow frequency range rather than canceling it. It is a comb filter effect, and only works to help on the low end of such speakers just a little bit.

I used the "inverse" of that trick once with monopole speakers.

On Day 1 of an audio show, we were getting too much bass in a frequency region which corresponded with the ceiling height. So I calculated which distance from the wall would result in a comb-filter cancellation in the same frequency region. It was enough of an improvement that Days 2 and 3 sucked noticeably less than Day 1.
 

Duke

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Do concert halls create the kinds of images found on high end audio systems? Unquestionably not...

I myself like well defined images on a hi fi soundstage...

Agreed. Precise imaging is arguably a substitute for seeing the performers. We can envision where the soloist is, and enjoy "watching" as well as listening to them. Solid, precise imaging is usually what my non-audiophile family members notice first.
 
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