Do high quality subs negate the requirement for good bottom end for two channel listening?

[Terry Stahly]

I spoke with a Revel dealer and he told me since I was using a pair Martin Logan Balanced Force 212's that if I wanted to replace my Bowers 801's the revel F226be would be better since the base is augmented by some quality subs.

I can agree with that but my question is for two channel listening i.e. Allman Brothers cranked or some good rock or male and female vocalists and classical is if I would miss the low end of or the 801's and should possibly go with the Revel F228be's or will the ML 212's pick up where the revel f226be leave off?

I am not that knowledgable on how subs work with stereo sound or if they even do? I use a Marantz 8805 as a processor preempted out to a Krell 700cx amp for left and right.

 

[NTK]

You may want to take a look at the article (and listen to the binaural recordings) by @mitchco referenced in this post, comparing the big JBL 4722 to the mini KEF LS50, both backed by a pair of Rythmik L-12 subs.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ased-speaker-designs.6441/page-35#post-340535

 

[MZKM]

With dual subs, I would most always suggest crossover over the mains, and thus the bass capabilities <60Hz of the speakers is not important.

 

[GD Fan]

If I'm not mistaken, Bowers 801s are BIG speakers. The Revels you're referring to I would think of as closer competitors to the current Bowers 804s. The Studio2 might be a closer comp to what you're accustomed to? My worry would be the big step down in physical size.

 

[DonH56]

Crossovers are not brick walls such the the sound instantly falls to zero on either side. The sound will be roughly half as loud at 40 Hz from the mains and at 160 Hz from the subs using a second-order (12 dB/octave) 80-Hz crossover used by many AVRs. It is also worth remembering that distortion tends to rise quickly at low frequencies and the LF cutoff for many speakers is somewhat to wildly optimistic. I prefer my mains to have a LF -3 dB point an octave, at minimum half an octave, below the crossover point (my mains are well rated below that). Subs tend to include additional filtering on the high side (at least some of them) so are less a problem but mine do extend to ~160 Hz. The overlap helps provide a smoother transition region and allows a larger bass boost in the 60 - 120 Hz octave that many folk prefer.

From B&W 801's I would probably look at the F208 or F228Be, maybe the F328Be, but of course budget and size are other factors... Of course you can always get Salon2's .

Subs work fine with stereo, just use the stereo mode of your processor and enjoy.

IME/IMO - Don

 

[ace_xp2]

If an avr is still using 12db/octave, it's intended to work with sealed speakers whose roll off is also 12db/octave @80hz, providing relatively decent 24db/octave and also matching the common sub channel output @24db/octave. This is an old THX holdover, I'm not entirely up on what the new systems do for crossovers, but I was under the impression that a decent number of them can vary this now?

IIRC HK started doing variable crosses on their TI based systems in the early 2000s, and I thought that had become more common by now.

 

[DonH56]

If an avr is still using 12db/octave, it's intended to work with sealed speakers whose roll off is also 12db/octave @80hz, providing relatively decent 24db/octave and also matching the common sub channel output @24db/octave. This is an old THX holdover, I'm not entirely up on what the new systems do for crossovers, but I was under the impression that a decent number of them can vary this now?

IIRC HK started doing variable crosses on their TI based systems in the early 2000s, and I thought that had become more common by now.

I don't know, have not kept up. About three years ago virtually every AVR I checked was 12 dB/octave and that was fixed. My current processor offers 12 and 24 dB/octave. My previous AVR (Pioneer Elite) was 12 dB/octave; I used an outboard 24 dB/oct L-R crossover instead. No idea if that has changed significantly today, so I could well be wrong, but it'd be a good idea to check before buying if that is important to you.

 

[ace_xp2]

Sounds like they are still doing that, so it's worth keeping in mind then that the default crossover is specifically built around having speakers with the correct roll off to match with the sub crossover. It's often missed with lots of peoples set ups, especially given the preference for ported satellite/bookshelf speakers which will by default not have the correct roll off. Even sealed doesn't mean they'll be done right, it just means the slope is at least correct.

It was unfortunate they (avr manufacturers) continued to somewhat mindlessly follow THX spec a decade ago, given how few satellite speakers systems follow it even then let alone today.

 

[HTNut1975]

I believe NAD has the 24 dB slope.

 

[Senior NEET Engineer]

No they do not. Unless you cross over very high, a subwoofer is not going to help much between 100-300hz. This is the region where speakers and amps struggle to play clean sound at high volumes. Without manufacturer data, it's hard to say which speaker would work for your requirements. Maybe try contacting Revel.

 

[beefkabob]

I spoke with a Revel dealer and he told me since I was using a pair Martin Logan Balanced Force 212's that if I wanted to replace my Bowers 801's the revel F226be would be better since the base is augmented by some quality subs.

The G226be are plenty of speaker, considering the two subs you've got. Highpass at 60. Lowpass at 50. 24db filter if you can. Hopefully you either know how to use the room correction in your Marantz or you can hire somebody who can do it properly. The only way you'd miss the bass is if the old system was set up wrong and the new system was set up right, so you got used to way too much bass.

At your budget, $7000 for speakers... sell the Krell amp for $6000 or so and, with $13000, buy a pair of Dutch and Dutch 8C.