DIY Meier Crossfeed Questions

[MorningDew]

I have been thinking about experimenting with crossfeed lately as I've been listening to some older Jazz recordings. This would be on a nightstand headphone set-up running off of an iPhone so software/DSP isn't an option. So, in looking for a hardware solution I came across this short tutorial to build a simple "bass enhanced crossfeed". I like the idea of building something although my experience so far is limited to a couple of cables. So, here's where I'm looking for some direction - Could something like this potentially do any harm whatsoever placed between a DAC and AMP? The last thing I want is to find out I cooked my amp with my crossfeed attempt. Finally, is this something that seems worthwhile to try? If so, I'd be excited to get going ordering parts, ask questions and learn some new things along the way. Thanks!

 

[MRC01]

Looks like a fun project. You're right, it's especially relevant to old jazz recordings that often have instruments panned hard R or L, thus sound wonky on heaphones. Have you listened to Meier's crossfeed before? I think it's one of the best, but it's not for everyone. Some PC software (like PulseEffects on Ubuntu) has implemented something close to it in DSP, so you can try it out.

Note: if you're running off an iPhone, couldn't you implement crossfeed in DSP on the iPhone?

 

[Vincent Kars]

running off of an iPhone so software/DSP isn't an option.

Is it?
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/headphone-crossfeed/id1516103494

 

[MorningDew]

Looks like a fun project. You're right, it's especially relevant to old jazz recordings that often have instruments panned hard R or L, thus sound wonky on heaphones. Have you listened to Meier's crossfeed before? I think it's one of the best, but it's not for everyone. Some PC software (like PulseEffects on Ubuntu) has implemented something close to it in DSP, so you can try it out.

Note: if you're running off an iPhone, couldn't you implement crossfeed in DSP on the iPhone?

I’ll look into the PC based ones, thanks. I’ve not heard Meier’s before and was tempted by one of the amps reviews here that has it but performance of the amp in general seemed sub-par. I think with the lack of live music taking place right now anything that makes headphones sound more natural and put you “in the room” sounds very appealing.

 

[MRC01]

Meier publishes details about his crossfeed. It includes sound samples and a basic circuit diagram.
With most normal stereo music the effect is subtle. Of course it is not subtle at all but quite noticeable for recordings that have instruments panned hard L or R.

 

[JeffS7444]

I don't know about the Meier, but I found this one by the late Siegfried LInkwitz:
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/headphone-xfeed.htm
But I have a DSP-based headphone amplifier, so I did not build the circuit which he depicted, but rather, I configured the DSP as per Figure 2 in the above December 1971 article of Audio.

 

[MorningDew]

Is it?
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/headphone-crossfeed/id1516103494

Wow, thanks! I had no idea this existed. Just downloaded it - looks like it access what’s on the phone via iTunes. I have some music there to try it but mostly stream Tidal. Can’t wait to try this out tonight, thanks again.

 

[julian_hughes]

You can definitely implement Meier Crossfeed in software on iPhone. Neutron Player has three preset crossfeed settings, the third of which is Meier crossfeed. You can also set your own parameters. I haven't used Neutron on iPhone but I do use it on several Android devices and it is very capable and well worth the purchase price.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/neutron-music-player/id766858884

 

[MorningDew]

I don't know about the Meier, but I found this one by the late Siegfried LInkwitz:
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/headphone-xfeed.htm
But I have a DSP-based headphone amplifier, so I did not build the circuit which he depicted, but rather, I configured the DSP as per Figure 2 in the above December 1971 article of Audio.

So interesting to apply a 50 year old graph to a modern piece of hardware/software...love it. I would consider going this route for the desktop setup but I’m a little intimidated by DSP.

 

[MorningDew]

You can definitely implement Meier Crossfeed in software on iPhone. Neutron Player has three preset crossfeed settings, the third of which is Meier crossfeed. You can also set your own parameters. I haven't used Neutron on iPhone but I do use it on several Android devices and it is very capable and well worth the purchase price.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/neutron-music-player/id766858884

That’s a serious-looking app! I think I need it just to check our it’s capabilities. Unfortunately, I’m not sure it’s something I could stream Tidal through. Looking forward to checking it out though, thanks!

 

[MorningDew]

Meier publishes details about his crossfeed. It includes sound samples and a basic circuit diagram.
With most normal stereo music the effect is subtle. Of course it is not subtle at all but quite noticeable for recordings that have instruments panned hard L or R.

Interesting, thanks! Cool to see how sound can be delayed by tiny amounts to then change the brain’s perception.

 

[julian_hughes]

That’s a serious-looking app! I think I need it just to check our it’s capabilities. Unfortunately, I’m not sure it’s something I could stream Tidal through. Looking forward to checking it out though, thanks!

I really don't know if you can do that on iPhone. On Android you can use BubbleUPnP to access Tidal, Qobuz and some others and then pass those streams to the UPnP/DLNA/Chromecast renderer of your choice. Technically it must possible to do the same on iOS but I don't know if anyone implemented it or if there are licensing obstacles etc.

 

[MorningDew]

Interesting, I’ll look into that as an option. Thanks!

 

[Bob-23]

Finally, is this something that seems worthwhile to try? If so, I'd be excited to get going ordering parts, ask questions and learn some new things along the way. Thanks!

I'd encourage you building your own Meier-crossfeed. It's a lot of fun building your own stuff, and it's a good beginner's project.

I've tried out different crossfeeds, and to my mind, Meier's is the best one - in particular the bass enhanced version, and Rock Grotto gives good advice on how to build. I've got it in two versions: the 'middle' one for today's recordings, and a 'high' one for (the typcal) older hard panned recordings.

I couldn't listen without crossfeed - the typical recordings are mixed on speakers for listening on speakers, and thus, listening on headphones to those recordings suffers from 'spatial distortion': crossfeed tries to correct for that, it cannot do that perfectly, but it helps a lot.

I prefer the analog (hardware) crossfeed to the digital one - but must admit, haven't done a rigid AB-comparison.

Good luck!

Source: Jan Meier:
An Enhanced-Bass Natural Crossfeed Filter
in: https://web.archive.org/web/20150315022227/http://headwize.com/?page_id=774

 

[MorningDew]

I'd encourage you building your own Meier-crossfeed. It's a lot of fun building your own stuff, and it's a good beginner's project.

I've tried out different crossfeeds, and to my mind, Meier's is the best one - in particular the bass enhanced version, and Rock Grotto gives good advice on how to build. I've got it in two versions: the 'middle' one for today's recordings, and a 'high' one for (the typcal) older hard panned recordings.

I couldn't listen without crossfeed - the typical recordings are mixed on speakers for listening on speakers, and thus, listening on headphones to those recordings suffers from 'spatial distortion': crossfeed tries to correct for that, it cannot do that perfectly, but it helps a lot.

I prefer the analog (hardware) crossfeed to the digital one - but must admit, haven't done a rigid AB-comparison.

Good luck!

Source: Jan Meier:
An Enhanced-Bass Natural Crossfeed Filter
in: https://web.archive.org/web/20150315022227/http://headwize.com/?page_id=774

This looks great, thank you! I'm looking at Mouser now to begin ordering parts but am a little lost considering all of the options. For example it calls for 330 Ohm resistors. What should I be getting for power, tolerance, temperature coefficient, etc.? Thanks.

 

[Bob-23]

This looks great, thank you! I'm looking at Mouser now to begin ordering parts but am a little lost considering all of the options. For example it calls for 330 Ohm resistors. What should I be getting for power, tolerance, temperature coefficient, etc.? Thanks.

Get metal-film resistors, 1% tolerance is alright, 0.5 W is sufficient. Wima film-capacitors are good, 63 V, 5% tolerance. I like to put the circuit in alu-cases (~11X6X3/LXBXH).

 

[MorningDew]

Get metal-film resistors, 1% tolerance is alright, 0.5 W is sufficient. Wima film-capacitors are good, 63 V, 5% tolerance. I like to put the circuit in alu-cases (~11X6X3/LXBXH).

Great, thanks...I'll start piecing together the parts.

 

[Tks]

Amazing how a company who traces it's roots of success in the modern era in part mostly due to audio, can't seem to include something as basic as this. You know, to remove the sometimes overwhelming stereo effect of music mostly produced for listening to speakers.

Just unbelievable. But then again, with how long it took them to conjure a dark theme, and a blue-light filter for late night viewing. It's really not a surpised to see such dumbassery from big companies for some inexplicable reason..

 

[MorningDew]

Get metal-film resistors, 1% tolerance is alright, 0.5 W is sufficient. Wima film-capacitors are good, 63 V, 5% tolerance. I like to put the circuit in alu-cases (~11X6X3/LXBXH).

My apologies for the game of 20 questions. The ingredients call for a 200 nanofared capacitor but it apperas that the closest WIMA makes is a 220 nanofared. Is this suitable or should I look elsewhere? Thanks!

 

[Bob-23]

My apologies for the game of 20 questions. The ingredients call for a 200 nanofared capacitor but it apperas that the closest WIMA makes is a 220 nanofared. Is this suitable or should I look elsewhere? Thanks!

Your welcome! I find it great when somebody wants to build his devices instead of buying them - it's become relatively rare today, that attitude.


Here are better pics on a second article on Rock Grotto - they also deal with the question of the "220nf" instead of the "difficult-to-get" 200nf. The 220nf work well for me.
http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/crossproject2.htm

You may want to try out the "high"-version, too. Then substitute: 47nf by 22nf; 2K by 4,4K; 200/220nf by 100nf; 330 Ohm remain the same; 2,2K remain the same.