Denon AVR X4500h with a stereo amp

[japesinjapan]

Greetings. Currently running a 5.1.4 setup with the X4500H, and it has been great. But as luck would have it, I just inherited a Denon stereo amp (PMA-1500RII) and since I always thought the system needed more musicality, I am thinking to try it to power the front mains.

I know the 4500 can do pre outs and there are outs for every channel on the back, but everything I read talks about using them with a 11.1 setup. Since I'm using a 9.1 setup, can anyone shed light on if it is possible to configure it to use the stereo amp on the mains? I've been staring at the manual amp assign settings for 2 hours and I've gone cross eyed.

Side note, if this is indeed possible what's the current consensus on if doing such a thing would even be worthwhile? The speakers I would be powering with them are Dali Oberon 7's.

 

[peng]

Greetings. Currently running a 5.1.4 setup with the X4500H, and it has been great. But as luck would have it, I just inherited a Denon stereo amp (PMA-1500RII) and since I always thought the system needed more musicality, I am thinking to try it to power the front mains.

I know the 4500 can do pre outs and there are outs for every channel on the back, but everything I read talks about using them with a 11.1 setup. Since I'm using a 9.1 setup, can anyone shed light on if it is possible to configure it to use the stereo amp on the mains? I've been staring at the manual amp assign settings for 2 hours and I've gone cross eyed.

Side note, if this is indeed possible what's the current consensus on if doing such a thing would even be worthwhile? The speakers I would be powering with them are Dali Oberon 7's.

You can use the X4500H's preouts with a stereo power amp. The PMA-1500RII is an integrated amp that does not have provision for connection to a preamp, so if you use the X4500H's preout with it, you will end up using the volume control of both devices. In my opinion, just use the PMA on its own, with a separate two channel system as I see no gain whatsoever, to use it with the X4500H. The PMA amp should be able to drive the Dali Oberon 7, based on their recommended amp power of 30-180 W, so can the X4500H.

As for consensus, I doubt there is such a thing on this, others will have different opinions.

 

[japesinjapan]

You can use the X4500H's preouts with a stereo power amp. The PMA-1500RII is an integrated amp that does not have provision for connection to a preamp, so if you use the X4500H's preout with it, you will end up using the volume control of both devices. In my opinion, just use the PMA on its own, with a separate two channel system as I see no gain whatsoever, to use it with the X4500H. The PMA amp should be able to drive the Dali Oberon 7, based on their recommended amp power of 30-180 W, so can the X4500H.

As for consensus, I doubt there is such a thing on this, others will have different opinions.

Thanks. I have a few followup questions though.

First, as for the volume I assumed you'd set it to around 75 percent and that would be that. But now that I think about it, it would need to be matched to the surrounds as the volume was changed, so I see the issue.

What is a amp that can do that called? What do I need to look for?

As examples, would any of these work? Yamaha 801, CA 81, maranta 8006?

As for using it with another system, I'm planning a new system with ls50 meta speakers now, but I don't see it fitting in well. The speakers attached to it at the moment are Bose 201 and I just don't see where I'd use those either...

 

[peng]

Thanks. I have a few followup questions though.

First, as for the volume I assumed you'd set it to around 75 percent and that would be that. But now that I think about it, it would need to be matched to the surrounds as the volume was changed, so I see the issue.

What is a amp that can do that called? What do I need to look for?

As examples, would any of these work? Yamaha 801, CA 81, maranta 8006?

As for using it with another system, I'm planning a new system with ls50 meta speakers now, but I don't see it fitting in well. The speakers attached to it at the moment are Bose 201 and I just don't see where I'd use those either...

I assume you may be thinking about integrated amps that have the so called hometheater bypass feature.

The Yamaha does not have that, nor sure about the Cambridge audio and the Marantz, have to read the manual. Nothing of the amps your mentioned has more power output than the Denon avr-x4500h anyway. Easier to just use the AVR and enjoy the music.

 

[japesinjapan]

I assume you may be thinking about integrated amps that have the so called hometheater bypass feature.

The Yamaha does not have that, nor sure about the Cambridge audio and the Marantz, have to read the manual. Nothing of the amps your mentioned has more power output than the Denon avr-x4500h anyway. Easier to just use the AVR and enjoy the music.

Fair play. I still wonder what I could do to get better music from that system then. I don't feel like the speakers are as dynamic as they should be... I thought the problem laid with the amplifier. Appreciate the feedback though! Very helpful!

 

[Chrispy]

What do you think in an amp brings on more "musicality"? The Denon integrated amp doesn't appear to have any advantages, just complicating things. I'd also just use it in another room. Better audio would be using better speakers generally, perhaps more attention to setup/room.

 

[japesinjapan]

What do you think in an amp brings on more "musicality"? The Denon integrated amp doesn't appear to have any advantages, just complicating things. I'd also just use it in another room. Better audio would be using better speakers generally, perhaps more attention to setup/room.

Thanks for the reply. As for the amp, I'm honestly not sure what it would bring. I've just done everything I can do dial in the system over the last 5 years, and it is stellar for home theatre. But I get so much better sound from my headphones at half the cost of the speakers, so I figured it being an AVR that it was probably the weak link in the chain. It was nothing more than a guess though and this amp gave me a chance to test the theory.

As for more attention to the setup and room, I'm sure more could be done physically, but I have a 6 year old with toys outs everywhere and this is the living room/kitchen, so not realistic to be putting treatments up on the walls. As for dialing in the system, I have the audyssy app and did customs EQ profiles and done everything I could to dial it in over my time with it, and I feel that in terms of hone theatre, it is very very solid. But when I throw music on, turn on the pure audio mode, I'm just left wanting more.

New speakers eh .... Hmmm...

 

[Chrispy]

Thanks for the reply. As for the amp, I'm honestly not sure what it would bring. I've just done everything I can do dial in the system over the last 5 years, and it is stellar for home theatre. But I get so much better sound from my headphones at half the cost of the speakers, so I figured it being an AVR that it was probably the weak link in the chain. It was nothing more than a guess though and this amp gave me a chance to test the theory.

As for more attention to the setup and room, I'm sure more could be done physically, but I have a 6 year old with toys outs everywhere and this is the living room/kitchen, so not realistic to be putting treatments up on the walls. As for dialing in the system, I have the audyssy app and did customs EQ profiles and done everything I could to dial it in over my time with it, and I feel that in terms of hone theatre, it is very very solid. But when I throw music on, turn on the pure audio mode, I'm just left wanting more.

New speakers eh .... Hmmm...

If you had a stronger amp than the integrated, maybe some difference to be had in terms of impedance handling/power. What speakers are they particularly? Rather than pure direct mode, that's just 2ch ? 2.1? Do you use DynamicEQ and RLO? Not sure what you want more of, tho....

 

[Chrispy]

Thanks for the reply. As for the amp, I'm honestly not sure what it would bring. I've just done everything I can do dial in the system over the last 5 years, and it is stellar for home theatre. But I get so much better sound from my headphones at half the cost of the speakers, so I figured it being an AVR that it was probably the weak link in the chain. It was nothing more than a guess though and this amp gave me a chance to test the theory.

As for more attention to the setup and room, I'm sure more could be done physically, but I have a 6 year old with toys outs everywhere and this is the living room/kitchen, so not realistic to be putting treatments up on the walls. As for dialing in the system, I have the audyssy app and did customs EQ profiles and done everything I could to dial it in over my time with it, and I feel that in terms of hone theatre, it is very very solid. But when I throw music on, turn on the pure audio mode, I'm just left wanting more.

New speakers eh .... Hmmm...

If you had a stronger amp than the integrated, maybe some difference to be had in terms of impedance handling/power. What speakers are they particularly? Rather than pure direct mode, that's just 2ch ? 2.1? do you use DynamicEQ and RLO? Not sure what you want more of, tho....

 

[japesinjapan]

If you had a stronger amp than the integrated, maybe some difference to be had in terms of impedance handling/power. What speakers are they particularly? Rather than pure direct mode, that's just 2ch ? 2.1? Do you use DynamicEQ and RLO? Not sure what you want more of, tho....

Dali Oberon 7 towers, and yes it is 2.1 even in pure mode. It hits hard, good bass and gets loud, that's not the problem, I guess you'd call it clarity? Details? I also feel the soundstage is fairly flat. It sounds good. Really. But just not magical. And upstairs I have a $150 headphone amp and some meze 109 pro headphones that give me loads of magic for less than $1000. I'm sorry to not articulate it well, I guess I just feel it is missing some special sauce, not that the whole thing is broken.

 

[japesinjapan]

If you had a stronger amp than the integrated, maybe some difference to be had in terms of impedance handling/power. What speakers are they particularly? Rather than pure direct mode, that's just 2ch ? 2.1? do you use DynamicEQ and RLO? Not sure what you want more of, tho....

Ah, no, dynamic eq and all those audyssy toys are off. Just room curves, and then in the app I took off mid range compensation, reduced the target areas for audyssy to <500hz. Crossovers at 80. Stuff like that, nothing experimental.

 

[peng]

Ah, no, dynamic eq and all those audyssy toys are off. Just room curves, and then in the app I took off mid range compensation, reduced the target areas for audyssy to <500hz. Crossovers at 80. Stuff like that, nothing experimental.

I love deq and I would use it all the time, because I don't listen loud. After replacing my avr-4400h with the Anthem avm70, the thing that I really miss most is deq. It just shows people have different preferences.

 

[Chrispy]

Dali Oberon 7 towers, and yes it is 2.1 even in pure mode. It hits hard, good bass and gets loud, that's not the problem, I guess you'd call it clarity? Details? I also feel the soundstage is fairly flat. It sounds good. Really. But just not magical. And upstairs I have a $150 headphone amp and some meze 109 pro headphones that give me loads of magic for less than $1000. I'm sorry to not articulate it well, I guess I just feel it is missing some special sauce, not that the whole thing is broken.

Not sure what you mean by clarity or details, can't imagine the Denon lacks in these areas. Soundstage is more your speakers/room and the recording itself, not the amp. I don't like headphones myself, so not sure what the differences you like in using headphones vs speakers are particularly. Magical I don't know about either, I'm fairly practical in such and over the years have not found pre-amps/amps to make a significant difference if adequate for purpose. Different speakers/rooms, sure.

So none of the editor app curves helped for music?

 

[japesinjapan]

I love deq and I would use it all the time, because I don't listen loud. After replacing my avr-4400h with the Anthem avm70, the thing that I really miss most is deq. It just shows people have different preferences.

I found it great for lower volumes, absolutely. But above say, 75db I found it to be sounding off. Bass balance was strange. Lots of bass, too much perhaps but not in balance with everything else. For music at or above 75db it wasn't great though. You are right though, we all have different experiences!

 

[japesinjapan]

Not sure what you mean by clarity or details, can't imagine the Denon lacks in these areas. Soundstage is more your speakers/room and the recording itself, not the amp. I don't like headphones myself, so not sure what the differences you like in using headphones vs speakers are particularly. Magical I don't know about either, I'm fairly practical in such and over the years have not found pre-amps/amps to make a significant difference if adequate for purpose. Different speakers/rooms, sure.

So none of the editor app curves helped for music?

Ya, sorry for not articulating well. I can just hear details in the headphones that I can't from the speakers. Things just resolve and I can hear layeres between sounds and clarity in those sounds. But on the speakers I either cant hear the nuances or the layers are smushed together.

I've tried 20-30 curves over the years, I've tried to flatten things, I've tried to boost things, I've tried to negative EQ the place. I'm no pro as I'm sure you can tell, but I've tried my best to research and execute. In the end, the best results I've had with it were to turn the toys off, and reduce the effective range for xt32 EQ to <500hz and the midrange compensation off. That gave really good results in the home theatre and was largest improvement in terms of music as well. Ymmv.

 

[Chrispy]

Ya, sorry for not articulating well. I can just hear details in the headphones that I can't from the speakers. Things just resolve and I can hear layeres between sounds and clarity in those sounds. But on the speakers I either cant hear the nuances or the layers are smushed together.

I've tried 20-30 curves over the years, I've tried to flatten things, I've tried to boost things, I've tried to negative EQ the place. I'm no pro as I'm sure you can tell, but I've tried my best to research and execute. In the end, the best results I've had with it were to turn the toys off, and reduce the effective range for xt32 EQ to <500hz and the midrange compensation off. That gave really good results in the home theatre and was largest improvement in terms of music as well. Ymmv.

Thanks, helps somewhat. Having speakers dedicated to your head and eliminating the room may allow for what you describe more than your speakers can do?

I noticed you said dyneq and bass were an issue, you did experiment with RLO for that? So you do still use Audyssey for music rather than pure direct mode?

Sometimes the grass is just greener elsewhere. Personally with music the best results are from the best recordings, quite a few just aren't all that great to begin with.

 

[japesinjapan]

Thanks, helps somewhat. Having speakers dedicated to your head and eliminating the room may allow for what you describe more than your speakers can do?

I noticed you said dyneq and bass were an issue, you did experiment with RLO for that? So you do still use Audyssey for music rather than pure direct mode?

Sometimes the grass is just greener elsewhere. Personally with music the best results are from the best recordings, quite a few just aren't all that great to begin with.

No, thank you! I've tried different offsets, -5 was the best. But, they bass was always big and boomy. It lacked the quality and contour when I used it. I had more consistent results across all volumes with it off, and certain the quality of the bass suffered. Things felt rounded instead of sharp if that makes sense.

 

[Chrispy]

No, thank you! I've tried different offsets, -5 was the best. But, they bass was always big and boomy. It lacked the quality and contour when I used it. I had more consistent results across all volumes with it off, and certain the quality of the bass suffered. Things felt rounded instead of sharp if that makes sense.

May just depend on what your bass preferences are, personally one of my favorite parts. I do use several Denon avrs for music (sometimes with very powerful external amps) and have never felt they lacked, and do like the flexibility of setup they offer. No, rounded vs sharp doesn't help a lot particularly. What part of the bass range particularly? I'd still tend to think of the speakers more than the electronics....

ps still not clear on the editor app use or pure direct....

 

[japesinjapan]

May just depend on what your bass preferences are, personally one of my favorite parts. I do use several Denon avrs for music (sometimes with very powerful external amps) and have never felt they lacked, and do like the flexibility of setup they offer. No, rounded vs sharp doesn't help a lot particularly. What part of the bass range particularly? I'd still tend to think of the speakers more than the electronics....

ps still not clear on the editor app use or pure direct....

Sorry for the delayed response. I can't put a number to the bass range, mostly because I don't know. I'll say that kick drums that should hit like an 80s song end up being softened and come out more like something from the Beatles. The hit and impact goes away. That's what I meant by "rounded"

As for the editor app and pure direct, what is unclear? I'd be happy to elaborate.

Thanks again for taking the time!

 

[Chrispy]

Sorry for the delayed response. I can't put a number to the bass range, mostly because I don't know. I'll say that kick drums that should hit like an 80s song end up being softened and come out more like something from the Beatles. The hit and impact goes away. That's what I meant by "rounded"

As for the editor app and pure direct, what is unclear? I'd be happy to elaborate.

Thanks again for taking the time!

Just that the editor app curves aren't available in pure direct....just not clear which way you're going currently.