DAP vs Portable DAC

[gallionetech]

Hey all,

I'm trying to understand the performance difference between a DAP & a portable DAC.

Does anyone have any experience with DAPs and why someone would choose one over a portable DAC/AMP such as the Topping G5? Other than the form factor, I'm unsure of the performance differences.

- Can a expensive DAP such as the Cayin N8ii, iBasso DX320, SP2000T, etc. outperform a Mojo 2 or Topping G5?

- Is a simple dongle DAC such as the ddhifi TC44A equivalent in sound quality to a good DAP?

- Other than power output, will a dongle DAC and a larger portable DAC/amp perform the same?

Thanks in advance

 

[staticV3]

- Can a expensive DAP such as the Cayin N8ii, iBasso DX320, SP2000T, etc. outperform a Mojo 2 or Topping G5?

A DAP can theoretically outperform the Mojo2 or Topping G5. The ones you listed don't.

- Is a simple dongle DAC such as the ddhifi TC44A equivalent in sound quality to a good DAP?

A simple dongle DAC can be equivalent in sound quality to a good DAP. That doesn't mean that all of them are.

- Other than power output, will a dongle DAC and a larger portable DAC/amp perform the same?

A dongle DAC can perform the same as a larger portable DAC+Amp. Doesn't mean that all of them do.

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

Does anyone have any experience with DAPs and why someone would choose one over a portable DAC/AMP such as the Topping G5? Other than the form factor, I'm unsure of the performance differences.

I have a Fiio M9 that I almost never use even though it's my most powerful portable player. IMO the only reason for a DAP is if you have a very large (250GB+) collection of music that you feel like you must have access to. Also IMO, that's more than outweighed by the near guarantee of long-term software slowdowns and generally poorer battery life.

Can a expensive DAP such as the Cayin N8ii, iBasso DX320, SP2000T, etc. outperform a Mojo 2 or Topping G5?

None have been measured to do so. I do know that WolfL7 has measured some of iBasso's DAPs and they have performed quite well, but you could get 2 Topping G5s and a spare "media" phone for less than the DX320.

- Is a simple dongle DAC such as the ddhifi TC44A equivalent in sound quality to a good DAP?

As long as you're getting enough power and using a good quality simple dongle DAC, yes. Often smaller dongle DACs actually have better SINAD at low outputs.

 

[gallionetech]

Thanks all!

I think I'll go ahead with the Topping G5 and a dongle DAC. I just wanted to see if there was a good case for a DAP or not. I really don't want to have another android device such as a DAP but would have been willing to if there was better performance to be gained from it

 

[Keith_W]

Here are some reasons to buy a DAP over a dongle DAC or even a bluetooth DAC:

Dongles:
- You don't have a dongle dangling off your phone. If the dongle is subjected to mechanical shock, it might damage your USB-C or Lightning port.
- Too easy to lose dongles.
- Dongles usually have inadequate amplifiers which may be an issue depending on your headphone / IEM.
- Dongles deplete your phone battery.
- Takes up your USB-C / Lightning port so you can not charge at the same time or use an OTG cable (if you are on Android)

Bluetooth DAC's:
- You have to use one device for control and another device for listening.
- Will still deplete the phone battery
- However usually have better amplifiers than dongles.

DAP:
- Another device to carry around (but then all the others above are also more devices to carry around). However with this one you do your control and listening on the same device.
- Usually have built in PEQ's
- Will not deplete battery life on your phone
- Usually have SD card readers allowing massive storage, or unlimited storage if you are happy to swap cards
- Usually have good built-in amplifiers.
- For the same price as that Topping G5 you could get a DAP.

It is also my subjective impression that DAP's do sound better. My DAP (AK SP2000T) has switchable amplifier output - op-amp, tube, or hybrid. There is a clear audible difference between them. Maybe I should send my DAP to Amir for review. AK also makes another DAP called the SE200, which has both AKM and ESS DAC's on board. You can also hear a difference between them (don't ask me why). I also own an AK Kann DAP which has stonking amplifier output which is enough to drive me Dan Clark Stealths, but it is so heavy that it should be considered a portable home setup rather than a DAP.

 

[gallionetech]

Here are some reasons to buy a DAP over a dongle DAC or even a bluetooth DAC:

Dongles:
- You don't have a dongle dangling off your phone. If the dongle is subjected to mechanical shock, it might damage your USB-C or Lightning port.
- Too easy to lose dongles.
- Dongles usually have inadequate amplifiers which may be an issue depending on your headphone / IEM.
- Dongles deplete your phone battery.
- Takes up your USB-C / Lightning port so you can not charge at the same time or use an OTG cable (if you are on Android)

Bluetooth DAC's:
- You have to use one device for control and another device for listening.
- Will still deplete the phone battery
- However usually have better amplifiers than dongles.

DAP:
- Another device to carry around (but then all the others above are also more devices to carry around). However with this one you do your control and listening on the same device.
- Usually have built in PEQ's
- Will not deplete battery life on your phone
- Usually have SD card readers allowing massive storage, or unlimited storage if you are happy to swap cards
- Usually have good built-in amplifiers.
- For the same price as that Topping G5 you could get a DAP.

It is also my subjective impression that DAP's do sound better. My DAP (AK SP2000T) has switchable amplifier output - op-amp, tube, or hybrid. There is a clear audible difference between them. Maybe I should send my DAP to Amir for review.

The SP2000T was definitely on my consideration list. Overall, how do you like it?

 

[Keith_W]

The SP2000T was definitely on my consideration list. Overall, how do you like it?

As I said elsewhere, the DAP is less important than your transducer. However, DAP's do make a difference, just a very slight difference compared to a transducer. The most important feature on a DAP in my opinion is PEQ, followed by interface (whether it has large buttons, nice screen, responsive to input), followed by expandable storage, and then sound quality. You can see that I don't even put SQ first on my list, apart from PEQ which has a much larger influence on SQ than any other audiophile gimmicks the DAP might have. Having said that, I do like my SP2000T. I'll send you a PM.

 

[Phoney]

DAP:
- Usually have built in PEQ's

Is this true? I was struggling to find DAPS with normal and well functioning 10+ band PEQ. Even amongst the really expensive ones. Some of them has some form of EQ, but the options are limited compared to a normal PEQ.

 

[Keith_W]

Hmm, I have yet to come across a DAP that doesn't have some form of EQ. I said "usually" because I don't know all the DAP's out there.

 

[Phoney]

Hmm, I have yet to come across a DAP that doesn't have some form of EQ. I said "usually" because I don't know all the DAP's out there.

Many of them probably have some form of EQ, but most people want a normal PEQ, and I'm struggling to find that. The DAP EQs I can find are all too limited for my preferred use. The ones I did find with PEQ has reports of issues with the EQ not functioning properly or being bugged.

 

[Open Mind Audio]

I’ve had an Onkyo dp-x1a DAP for 6 years and have gotten good use out of it. Its measurements are good even by today’s standards, and it has PEQ, almost 1TB memory thru dual card slots, balanced output and ok power. Still, it has limited use cases, especially with the vast advances in portable DACs. I mainly use it when flying (its best use case for me) or as a vacation/travel player, and sometimes outside.

I bought it thinking I’d use it to play hi-res off a portable HD in my car. That was a fun project 6 years ago but less needed today, and the power issues were always challenging.

Unless you have a good use case for a hi-res DAP, I’d stick to DACs. It is however a cool audio luxury.

 

[Jmudrick]

Hmm, I have yet to come across a DAP that doesn't have some form of EQ. I said "usually" because I don't know all the DAP's out there.

Why is a DAP EQ superior to using an application such as Wavelet or Poweramp on Android ? Given the IEMs and headphones I use (and the size of my jacket pockets I suppose) I've yet to find a reason for a DAP over my LG V60.

 

[Phoney]

Why is a DAP EQ superior to using an application such as Wavelet or Poweramp on Android ? Given the IEMs and headphones I use (and the size of my jacket pockets I suppose) I've yet to find a reason for a DAP over my LG V60.

Does Poweramp work well now? It was really bugged in the beginning. Wavelet is graphic I believe.

 

[Jmudrick]

Does Poweramp work well now? It was really bugged in the beginning. Wavelet is graphic I believe.

I honestly don't know, I typically use Wavelet curves or no EQ rather than a custom EQ. Mostly using Roon ARC or USBAPP.

 

[Phoney]

I’ve had an Onkyo dp-x1a DAP for 6 years and have gotten good use out of it. Its measurements are good even by today’s standards, and it has PEQ, almost 1TB memory thru dual card slots, balanced output and ok power. Still, it has limited use cases, especially with the vast advances in portable DACs. I mainly use it when flying (its best use case for me) or as a vacation/travel player, and sometimes outside.

I bought it thinking I’d use it to play hi-res off a portable HD in my car. That was a fun project 6 years ago but less needed today, and the power issues were always challenging.

Unless you have a good use case for a hi-res DAP, I’d stick to DACs. It is however a cool audio luxury.

But that's graphical EQ, not PEQ right? "You can set the EQ curves through the default Music app’s slick, graphical display with the touch of your finger." I wish there was more PEQs out there, graphic EQs are way better than nothing, but they are not as accurate at all. It seems like PEQ is hard to implement properly without bugs.

 

[Keith_W]

Why is a DAP EQ superior to using an application such as Wavelet or Poweramp on Android ? Given the IEMs and headphones I use (and the size of my jacket pockets I suppose) I've yet to find a reason for a DAP over my LG V60.

Short answer: it isn't, and it is possible that a DAP may be less versatile. I have yet to explore audio apps on Android, so there is a possibility that you can do things like implement VST plugins which I am not aware of*. Are you aware of any apps that can do this?

I bought a DAP for all the other reasons I outlined.

* Silly me, it was a quick google away. Yes there are Android apps that support VST plugins. I am not aware of any DAP's that can support VST plugins, so this may be advantageous if you need VST. Although ... I might be guilty of not exploring the Android OS on my AK DAP properly ... please let me think about this and do some more research and experimentation before I reply further and give potentially wrong information.

 

[Open Mind Audio]

But that's graphical EQ, not PEQ right? "You can set the EQ curves through the default Music app’s slick, graphical display with the touch of your finger." I wish there was more PEQs out there, graphic EQs are way better than nothing, but they are not as accurate at all. It seems like PEQ is hard to implement properly without bugs.

You're right, as far as I understand, it's not a PEQ where you can set all the variables. You can set up to 11 bands, and you can move the points both up and down and left and right (volume and frequency), but you don't have precise control -- plus it's not very easy to set things precisely with fingers on a small screen.

You can use Roon, and I imagine other programs, that have parametric EQ. Roon uses way too much of the DAP's power if you are over WiFi for files, to where it's hardly worth it. Perhaps another app that has PEQ and works on android reading music from the local card drives will do better. Now I'll have the check that out ....

 

[Peterinvan]

Short answer: it isn't, and it is possible that a DAP may be less versatile. I have yet to explore audio apps on Android, so there is a possibility that you can do things like implement VST plugins which I am not aware of*. Are you aware of any apps that can do this?

I bought a DAP for all the other reasons I outlined.

* Silly me, it was a quick google away. Yes there are Android apps that support VST plugins. I am not aware of any DAP's that can support VST plugins, so this may be advantageous if you need VST. Although ... I might be guilty of not exploring the Android OS on my AK DAP properly ... please let me think about this and do some more research and experimentation before I reply further and give potentially wrong information.

I use the HiBy Music app on my M11Pro. The EQ functionality is very effective. It also has a Tidal link so I can apply EQ to my Tidal tracks.

When out for a walk, I use the FiiO KA3 with my iPhone 6. No EQ with Tidal downloads, but it is better than carrying two large devices in my pocket.

 

[ehabheikal]

Why is a DAP EQ superior to using an application such as Wavelet or Poweramp on Android ? Given the IEMs and headphones I use (and the size of my jacket pockets I suppose) I've yet to find a reason for a DAP over my LG V60.

Wavelet is great, if my phone stops supporting it i would buy an old lg tested phone and root it to get wavelet to work at its best, although it does work well without rooting at least on a Galaxy fold 4

 

[Jmudrick]

Wavelet is great, if my phone stops supporting it i would buy an old lg tested phone and root it to get wavelet to work at its best, although it does work well without rooting at least on a Galaxy fold 4

Works well enough on my unrooted V60.