Counter-Placebo Effect?

[Newman]

The placebo effect is well understood and, I hope, widely accepted.

And so is how it applies to the audio hobby, e.g. price placebo, brand placebo, mods-placebo, highres-placebo, etc

BUT

Has anyone seen studies into whether there exists a counter-placebo effect? (my term)

That is, when we are told that what we have been perceiving as different or better is only a placebo, do we lose the perception of the placebo effect?

Or do our biases continue to influence our perceptions?

Anecdotes are welcome, but please preface them with *Anecdote.

I am really interested in any studies, or well-formed demonstrations.

Cheers

 

[Chrispy]

Reminds me of the guy who would signify a switch in cable/gear with a hand-held clicker altho no changes were actually made, just to elicit the changes "heard" by participants....seems a counter-placebo method at least

 

[Zensō]

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-know-placebo-201607079926

 

[Newman]

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-know-placebo-201607079926

“People can still get a placebo response, even though they know they are on a placebo,”

Yeah, that's what I feared.

So, even if we are completely satisfied that expensive power cable X can't possibly sound better, we still might hear it as better.

In which case, there is merit in buying it. Yes?

 

[Katji]

The placebo effect is well understood and, I hope, widely accepted.

In the "audiophile' context, not generally, only here this forum maybe. Not generally because the general "audiophile"/whatever context is basically same as general population.

That is, when we are told that what we have been perceiving as different or better is only a placebo, do we lose the perception of the placebo effect?

Or do our biases continue to influence our perceptions?

Biases [and prejudices] are not the same things as placebo effect.

 

[Zensō]

“People can still get a placebo response, even though they know they are on a placebo,”

Yeah, that's what I feared.

So, even if we are completely satisfied that expensive power cable X can't possibly sound better, we still might hear it as better.

In which case, there is merit in buying it. Yes?

I think not. Better to deal in reality as best we can, even with our human shortcomings.

 

[Katji]

^^^ Quite profound implications.

 

[Chrispy]

“People can still get a placebo response, even though they know they are on a placebo,”

Yeah, that's what I feared.

So, even if we are completely satisfied that expensive power cable X can't possibly sound better, we still might hear it as better.

In which case, there is merit in buying it. Yes?

Maybe if you're deluded and like decisions made that way.....

ps Just sounds like sales bullsh*t otherwise....

 

[Blumlein 88]

My anecdotal experience would indicate even after being told the placebo effects hold sway most of the time.

 

[Newman]

So, even if we are completely satisfied that expensive power cable X can't possibly sound better, we still might hear it as better.

In which case, there is merit in buying it. Yes?

I think not. Better to deal in reality as best we can, even with our human shortcomings.

In what way did I suggest not dealing in reality?

If the expensive cable creates a better experience for a particular person, despite knowing it hasn’t changed the soundwaves audibly, then it would be dealing with reality to buy it, surely? And denying reality to refuse to buy it on some principle, yes?

 

[Katji]

No. Depends how you will define reality, what you will consider to be reality. (And that is not something we can get into here. Philosophy. btw, note that there is a fundamental relation of physics with philosophy.)
However, the context here is [mainly?] the context of reality as in known Physics, does not include Psychology.

it would be dealing with reality to buy it, surely?

That is concocting your own subjective reality.
(Maybe the fundamental thing here (ASR.) Your experience/perception re "airy", "warm", and so on is not the same as mine. Whereas test results/measurements are objective. ...And then people add their own perceptions of those measurements, like wanting to see SINAD ranking chart in terms of consumer choice.)

 

[Chrispy]

In what way did I suggest not dealing in reality?

If the expensive cable creates a better experience for a particular person, despite knowing it hasn’t changed the soundwaves audibly, then it would be dealing with reality to buy it, surely? And denying reality to refuse to buy it on some principle, yes?

Do you sell cables? That makes sense pretty much only to sellers....

 

[Mart68]

Do you sell cables? That makes sense pretty much only to sellers....

No. it is a logical argument but I think the reality is slightly more complex.

If the person in question has bought a fancy power cable to try to fix some issue with the sound that is causing him concern then he is likely to perceive initially that the problem has been fixed. Over time he will realise it hasn't.

On the other hand if he is already happy with the sound quality but wishes to improve the sound further with the power cable then he will remain happy. Since there was no problem to fix he will perceive a good sound as even better and that effect won't wear off.

I'd suggest that the latter group represent the bulk of after-market cable users, and the bulk of the staunch defenders of such products.

 

[solderdude]

Placebo still works even when it has been proven to you. It's how the brain works. It happens to me often and have to prove it to myself again when encountered.

When you think something sounds 'better' and you get more enjoyment and you can afford the 'upgrade' for your piece of mind then yes, by all means draw your wallet.
That doesn't mean one should tell others that upgrade is 'worth' it and 'improves' SQ. It may not be applicable to others nor does it give objective improvements. That is if properly conducted tests show the upgrades can not be distinguished.

I mean.. people that claim huge improvements when placing some raibow foil stickers, an uneven amount of cable ties on the waterpiping or placing sanitary pads around cables ... for huge amounts of money... they are welcome to do so with their own money.

When fooling yourself helps you... why not ? Just don't expect others to go along with it.

The objectionable part is when one does find 'improvements' and writes 'serious' articles about it that will fool readers (or YT watchers) into thinking the effect is real and they are missing out and invest money they can put to better use.
So spreading factual misinformation is a no-no to me even when you feel it helps for you.

So yes, for believers and no when informing others about your great discovery.

The real issue is that those that fall for the placebo often believe it isn't placebo and think it is real and telling others is for the greater good. In reality it is only good for the manufacturer and sellers.

 

[Propheticus]

In the same alley (philosophical): is it ethical for a doctor to prescribe a placebo when they think symptoms are psychologically caused? While the placebo does nothing physical, the patient can actually improve a lot. Our mental state (brains / nervous system) have a lot of influence.

Paradoxically, the reason overpriced audiophile 'placebo' products work is often caused by that price. The more you pay for something that does nothing, the more it 'works'. Of course this has been long known by luxury brands that go through great lengths to prevent old stock from being dumped at lower prices.

 

[Newman]

When you think something sounds 'better' and you get more enjoyment and you can afford the 'upgrade' for your piece of mind then yes, by all means draw your wallet.
That doesn't mean one should tell others that upgrade is 'worth' it and 'improves' SQ. It may not be applicable to others nor does it give objective improvements.

Yes, that’s where I draw the line too. And it is very common in the audiophile forums and private discussions. Not least because they believe it is in the sound waves, just like it sounds.

BUT

What if some confirmation biases are near-universal? @Propheticus mentions price in a way that suggest it might be near-universal. In that case, the Prestige Product Purveyor is kind of doing us a favour, by giving us an opportunity to buy enhanced experiences that our mInds won’t let us have at a low price.

 

[solderdude]

What if some confirmation biases are near-universal? @Propheticus mentions price in a way that suggest it might be near-universal. In that case, the Prestige Product Purveyor is kind of doing us a favour, by giving us an opportunity to buy enhanced experiences that our mInds won’t let us have at a low price.

That would mean that for instance those comparing DACs that cannot be told apart in proper tests but differ in output voltage say 2V vs 2.2V where the expensive one is 2.2V it will always win. Just because the voltage is slightly higher.

What if the same cable is sold with some nice sheathing and price (say $10.- vs $1000.-) would that still be acceptable just because you paid more and got nicer sheating ?

Snake oil should be exposed. It won't be on subjective media (in fact it will be endorsed) so for that reason ASR helps those that are looking for info like that.

So here too... where does one draw the line between normal, expensive but defendable and snake-oil territory.
I mean the RME is expensive for most people but too cheap for 'the hearing crowd'.
The RME has great features others may lack and that's worth extra to some. Overly expensive, just expensive, good value or cheap ?
It's in the eyes of the beholder yet it certainly isn't snakeoil.

 

[q3cpma]

Yes, that’s where I draw the line too. And it is very common in the audiophile forums and private discussions. Not least because they believe it is in the sound waves, just like it sounds.

BUT

What if some confirmation biases are near-universal? @Propheticus mentions price in a way that suggest it might be near-universal. In that case, the Prestige Product Purveyor is kind of doing us a favour, by giving us an opportunity to buy enhanced experiences that our mInds won’t let us have at a low price.

The thing is that there are some doubts about the reliability of such effect on the long term. And with the money of snake oil, you could buy better real performance, instead.

 

[Tks]

Depends on the placebo.

If a test is trying to figure out what race someone is based on the sound of their voice. The placebo instantly shatters the moment the revelation is made.

But if you're trying to counter the McGurk Effect, it won't happen. The mind will continue to lie to you based on what is visually occuring, over what is audibly being uttered.

 

[Zensō]

In what way did I suggest not dealing in reality?

If the expensive cable creates a better experience for a particular person, despite knowing it hasn’t changed the soundwaves audibly, then it would be dealing with reality to buy it, surely? And denying reality to refuse to buy it on some principle, yes?

Not principle, but science. The earth appears flat, that doesn’t make it so…