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Constant Beamwidth Transducer (CBT) Speakers

Bjorn

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Not sure they become omni because of room modes but because of wavelength vs. source size. Anyway, it's just how historically most designs work. Omni down low, beaming higher up. But the question is, is this what we actually want? Are other directivity patterns more desirable for stereo reproduction? Maybe even the opposite behavior, i.e. narrow down low and wide higher up?
I believe it's clear that we want a narrow vertical directivity in order to minimize detrimental ceiling and floor reflections. Ideally down to Schroeder. Horizontally, your mileage may vary depending on room, acoustics, usage and taste. But generally I believe a uniform horizontal directivity above Schroeder is beneficial, though some narrowing in the highs from a broad dispersion speaker doesn't matter much.
 

markus

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I believe [...]
I believe so too but it has never been sufficiently tested in psychoacoustic studies, has it?
Floor and ceiling bounce is not only a spectral distortion but also a localization cue to our hearing. Now the question becomes "is removing any cue where a speaker is located beneficial to stereo reproduction?".
 
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Curvature

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Turning a CBT on the side would be beat the whole purpose of the design.
One of Keele's colleagues uses a full-length CBT as a center channel (full as opposed to half in the normal implementation, where the ground is used to virtually replicate the radiation of the physical array).
1713623631531.png


I think you are thinking somewhat too narrowly about what the design can be used for.
In most small rooms, the vertical directivity is generally more important than the horizontal and as shown in the studies of Bech.
I also believe that you are mischaracterizing Bech's findings.

In his 1995 study he stated that floor and ceiling reflections modify timbre the most in the absence of a reverberant field, and when the latter is added it acts as a masker and decreases the contribution of early reflections to timbre. The data is limited to recorded thresholds—he did not extrapolate further and make claims about how to view these results in terms of small room acoustics.

Same thing in his 1998 study, where he finds the floor reflection to have the highest impact on perceived spatial aspects (as opposed to the yimbral aspects that were the subject of his earlier study)—but again he restricts his comments to detection thresholds, specifically stating that energy above 2kHz has the greatest impact on spatial impression. There are no value judgments or room design advice attached.
 

Bjorn

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I believe so too but it has never been sufficiently tested in psychoacoustic studies, has it?
Floor and ceiling bounce is not only a spectral distortion but also a localization cue to our hearing. Now the question becomes "is removing any cue where a speaker is located beneficial to stereo reproduction?".
It's well know that vertical reflections only are negative. And a uniform directivity will lead to a room energy that's closer to the direct signal. But if you treat the room considerably, obviously things changes.
 

Bjorn

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One of Keele's colleagues uses a full-length CBT as a center channel (full as opposed to half in the normal implementation, where the ground is used to virtually replicate the radiation of the physical array).
View attachment 364870

I think you are thinking somewhat too narrowly about what the design can be used for.

I also believe that you are mischaracterizing Bech's findings.

In his 1995 study he stated that floor and ceiling reflections modify timbre the most in the absence of a reverberant field, and when the latter is added it acts as a masker and decreases the contribution of early reflections to timbre. The data is limited to recorded thresholds—he did not extrapolate further and make claims about how to view these results in terms of small room acoustics.

Same thing in his 1998 study, where he finds the floor reflection to have the highest impact on perceived spatial aspects (as opposed to the yimbral aspects that were the subject of his earlier study)—but again he restricts his comments to detection thresholds, specifically stating that energy above 2kHz has the greatest impact on spatial impression. There are no value judgments or room design advice attached.
I'm well aware of the Monte's center speaker and he isn't a collegaue of Don FIY. But his brother was for a time.
Who wants very wide vertical dispersion with a lot of vertical reflections and very narrow horizontal dispersion? Besides, by layng the speaker down like that it doesn't act like a ground plane CBT anymore with all its advantages. A much better approach would be a standing CBT behind a screen.

There's no reverberant field in a small room. That's well established by those who understand small room acoustics.
Bottom line is the vertical reflections are only detrimental and arrive the earliest in most small rooms. So we want to avoid them. Either way, a well designed CBT is uniform horizontally and isn't poor as someone here indicated.
 

markus

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It's well know that vertical reflections only are negative.
That's a claim the scientific literature does not support in my opinion. Guess we have to agree to disagree.
 

jhaider

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One of Keele's colleagues uses a full-length CBT as a center channel (full as opposed to half in the normal implementation, where the ground is used to virtually replicate the radiation of the physical array).
View attachment 364870

I never understood that one. It's basically a compact 3-way in terms of vertical directivity, with constrained horizontal directivity due to the arraying. So basically an exact mismatch to L/R CBT arrays in radiation pattern.

The only support I can think of is that it's fine for movies, because the visual stimulus is so dominant.
 

Curvature

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I never understood that one. It's basically a compact 3-way in terms of vertical directivity, with constrained horizontal directivity due to the arraying. So basically an exact mismatch to L/R CBT arrays in radiation pattern.
I don't know that we can make that call about vertical directivity without measurements. Horizontally, looks fit for purpose to me:

"Measurements were made on axis and in 10 deg increments to 70 deg off axis."

1713644454200.png

1713644467956.png


Keele included it as an example in several presentations.
 

jhaider

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I don't know that we can make that call about vertical directivity without measurements.

Is there some magic law that will make this vertical array of drivers behave differently from other such vertical arrays of drivers because someone incanted the letters C-B-T?

There's nothing wrong with applying basic sense.

I also think you miss my point that this particular configuration provides a severe mismatch in radiation pattern from right/left arrays. If all three were horizontal, that would be a different thing.
 

Curvature

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There's no reverberant field in a small room. That's well established by those who understand small room acoustics.
Bottom line is the vertical reflections are only detrimental and arrive the earliest in most small rooms. So we want to avoid them. Either way, a well designed CBT is uniform horizontally and isn't poor as someone here indicated.
Look, you can't be that dismissive. The language I'm using matches Bech's. Beyond that, acoustically, you're not even being accurate.

Alejandro Bidondo developed techniques to measure what he calls acoustic texture. On the spectrum from specular to diffuse, all rooms fall somewhere in between. The density of reflections, their decay time and time of transition between states, determines that. Those measurements and others are the basis for acoustically characterizing the difference between one given room to another. He has even developed software: https://alejandrobidondo.wordpress.com/

Specular reflections eventually hit walls enough times that they create low-level running reverberation, that, of course, is much weaker than early reflections, has a different spectrum, and is more diffuse.

That's one point.

The other is that if you have evidence that vertical reflections are detrimental, it certainly isn't found in Bech.

From what I've read, the research is inconclusive. There are lots of significant subjective effects that vertical reflections contribute. But separating negative from positive is not yet done. From what I've heard, any speaker that has narrow or inconsistent vertical directivity is, to me, hard to stand. I highly dislike moving my head or changing posture and hearing spectral shifts—at least with music. With pink noise, those shifts are unavoidable, of course.

As far as CBTs go, the measurements Keele has made in rooms show consistent vertical behavior, which can only be another plus. I still believe having half the array formed through the ground reflection was a brilliant move.
 

Curvature

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Is there some magic law that will make this vertical array of drivers behave differently from other such vertical arrays of drivers because someone incanted the letters C-B-T?

There's nothing wrong with applying basic sense.
Your intuition is probably right. But I would reserve judgement until seeing data. The interference effects of that many drivers are not easy to predict.
 

gberchin

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(Slightly OT) Just noticed this thread for the first time today, and it brings-up a question: Has anybody heard from Don Keele lately?

In late 2021 I re-established contact with Don (having worked with him at EVI back in the late 1990s), and he described work that he was doing on "straight-line" (non-curved) CBT arrays. Knowing that my background is in signal processing, he asked for my opinion on the use of allpass filters to create the delays needed to approximate the arc of a conventional CBT array. I did some preliminary work on the problem, reported my results to Don, and then he disappeared completely. Since then I have contacted other people who know him, and they all report the same thing -- no response to inquiries. Anybody know Don's status?
 

Newman

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[to Bjorn] Look, you can't be that dismissive. The language I'm using matches Bech's. Beyond that, acoustically, you're not even being accurate.

[snip]That's one point.

The other is that if you have evidence that vertical reflections are detrimental, it certainly isn't found in Bech.

From what I've read, the research is inconclusive. There are lots of significant subjective effects that vertical reflections contribute. But separating negative from positive is not yet done. From what I've heard, any speaker that has narrow or inconsistent vertical directivity is, to me, hard to stand. I highly dislike moving my head or changing posture and hearing spectral shifts—at least with music. With pink noise, those shifts are unavoidable, of course.
My reading of Toole's summary of the research is that he concludes that research indicates we are more sensitive to horizontal suboptimalities, and less sensitive to vertical suboptimalities. A primary reason for this is the non-binaural nature of reflections off floors and ceilings.

Also, regarding the desirability of eliminating floor reflections like a floor mounted CBT would do:

Perhaps the most persuasive evidence relating to the audible consequences of the floor bounce is in:
Silzle, A., Geyersberger, S. Brohasga, G., Weninger, D., and Leistner, M. (2009). “Vision and Technique behind the New Studios and Listening Rooms of the Fraunhofer IIS Audio Laboratory”, Audio Eng. Soc. 126th Convention, Preprint 7672.
It is said:
“Regarding the floor reflection, the audible influence by removing this with absorbers around the listener is negative—unnatural sounding. No normal room has an absorbent floor. The human brain seems to be used to this.”
Other anecdotal experiences appear to agree. Is it absolutely definitive? The Fraunhofer room is an impressive facility, so it comes down to what program they were listening to. I have not gone back to look.


Also, regarding Bech,

Bech separately examined the influence of several individual reflections on timbral and spatial aspects of perception. In all of the results, it was evident that signal was a major factor: Broadband pink noise was more revealing than male speech. In terms of timbre changes, only the noise signal was able to show any audible effects and then only for the floor reflection; speech revealed no audible effects on timbre.
Looking at the absorption coefficients used in modeling the floor reflection (Bech, 1996, Table II) reveals that the simulated floor was significantly more reflective than would be the case if it had been covered by a conventional clipped pile carpet on a felt underlay. Further investigations revealed that the detection was based mainly on sounds in the 500 Hz–2 kHz range, meaning that ordinary room furnishings are likely to be highly effective at reducing first reflections below threshold, even for the more demanding signal: broadband pink noise (see Section 21.3).
In terms of spatial aspects, Bech (1998) concluded that those sounds above ∼2 kHz contributed to audibility and that “only the first-order floor reflection will contribute to the spatial aspects.” The effect was not large, and, as before, speech was less revealing than broadband noise. Again, this is a case where a good carpet and underlay would appear to be sufficient to eliminate any audible effect.

(Toole, Sound Reproduction) - my emphasis​

As far as CBTs go, the measurements Keele has made in rooms show consistent vertical behavior, which can only be another plus. I still believe having half the array formed through the ground reflection was a brilliant move.
Yes, it was a smart idea to let the floor-mounted (or ceiling-mounted) image become the second half of the full CBT source. It saves on space and halves the cost. BUT I don't think Keele was saying that halving it and floor-mounting it is essential to its performance as a CBT (which I think Bjorn claims a few posts above). A full-size CBT source, not attached to a room surface, will work just as well.

cheers
 

Curvature

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BUT I don't think Keele was saying that halving it and floor-mounting it is essential to its performance as a CBT (which I think Bjorn claims a few posts above). A full-size CBT source, not attached to a room surface, will work just as well.
That's completely true, looking at the successful use of JBL's line of CBTs.
 

Curvature

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(Slightly OT) Just noticed this thread for the first time today, and it brings-up a question: Has anybody heard from Don Keele lately?

In late 2021 I re-established contact with Don (having worked with him at EVI back in the late 1990s), and he described work that he was doing on "straight-line" (non-curved) CBT arrays. Knowing that my background is in signal processing, he asked for my opinion on the use of allpass filters to create the delays needed to approximate the arc of a conventional CBT array. I did some preliminary work on the problem, reported my results to Don, and then he disappeared completely. Since then I have contacted other people who know him, and they all report the same thing -- no response to inquiries. Anybody know Don's status?
I've never met him in person. Thank you for your work. Keele has mentioned and simulated straight-line CBTs through delays, and JBL has a calculator and two such products: https://jblpro.com/en/product_families/cbt-series-passive-controlled-coverage-columns
 

Curvature

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I also think you miss my point that this particular configuration provides a severe mismatch in radiation pattern from right/left arrays. If all three were horizontal, that would be a different thing.
I really wonder about this. If we were talking about regular speakers I would certainly agree. I think however the CBTs' more generally consistent soundfield will cause less issues. I would point to multichannel work by, IIRC, Rumsey, who showed that increasing channel count made flaws less detectable.
 

Bjorn

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That's a claim the scientific literature does not support in my opinion. Guess we have to agree to disagree.
There are no researchers that show that very early reflections are beneficial, and which they are vertically in a normal small room. And no studies that show the vertical reflections are positive in any way. We only have studies that show they have a negtive impact on the sound quality.

To me that's very obvious also after working with acoustics for many years. Treating the ceiling reflections is often the greatest benefit people experience. It's especially detrimental when there's a sloping ceiling with low height. That can practically completely ruin the sound quality with harshness and listening fatigue due to the combination of very arriving specular energy, big changes in timbre/tonality with arrival from an accute angle.

Floor bounce is part vertical reflections as well, which leads to unenven frequency response with too low energy in the lower mids and upper bass. A speaker with broad vertical directivty is not a very good design for a small room IMO.

OTOH see the "Archimedes" EU-funded scientific research project: EUREKA Project E!105 ARCHIMEDES - EUREKA

It was a joint project of Danmarks Tekniske Universitet, Bang & Olufsen and KEF led by Prof. Soren Bech.

From one of the member of the test panels:

I’ve done a lot of testing on the effects of reflections in rooms, and there was a big, big project in Denmark about twelve years ago, with a lot of companies involved in investigating effects of reflections in rooms. I had the pleasure of being a test person, where we could actually simulate the audible effect of the floor reflection, sidewall reflection, ceiling reflection, and so on independently. The single most disturbing reflection in the room is the floor reflection. That is what makes the speaker sound like a radio and not like the actual event. ... The floor reflection absolutely must be handled
 
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Bjorn

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(Slightly OT) Just noticed this thread for the first time today, and it brings-up a question: Has anybody heard from Don Keele lately?

In late 2021 I re-established contact with Don (having worked with him at EVI back in the late 1990s), and he described work that he was doing on "straight-line" (non-curved) CBT arrays. Knowing that my background is in signal processing, he asked for my opinion on the use of allpass filters to create the delays needed to approximate the arc of a conventional CBT array. I did some preliminary work on the problem, reported my results to Don, and then he disappeared completely. Since then I have contacted other people who know him, and they all report the same thing -- no response to inquiries. Anybody know Don's status?
Don is doing fine. But he at an age where he prioritize other things than audio now. He's a very social person and loves to talk and interact with people. That's his joy.
 

Bjorn

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I never understood that one. It's basically a compact 3-way in terms of vertical directivity, with constrained horizontal directivity due to the arraying. So basically an exact mismatch to L/R CBT arrays in radiation pattern.

The only support I can think of is that it's fine for movies, because the visual stimulus is so dominant.
The horizontal dispersion is also very limited. So it will not work well as center much to the sides. And with such a placement, you end up with a potential severe floor bounce besides lots of high gain vertical reflections. Also much lower sensitive compared to a ground plane CBT.
But it looks really cool and works great for marketing.

I have CBTs in my home theater. Not using a center at all, but I would consider a standing CBT center behind the screen if it worked with the placement.
 
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gberchin

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Don is doing fine. But he at an age where he prioritize other things than audio now. He's a very social person and loves to talk and interact with people. That's his joy.

Thank you. Given Don's age, I was concerned.

Well, then, for people who would rather bend time than bend their CBT array, I'll see if I can replicate my results from 2021. Unfortunately, if I created any notes back then, I haven't been able to find them. So I have to work from memory. If I succeed, I'll report my results here. I don't think that Don will mind.
 
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