Comparison of AVR and dedicated 2.0 setup for music

[CapMan]

My music setup at home is Roon > Devialet 440 Expert Pro > Harbeth P3ESR + 2xSVS micro 3000 subs. I have low pass / high pass filters on the mains and subs managed by the Devialet DSP. I use 2 channels of PEQ on the subs implemented from REW measurements just to take out the main room mode at c. 50Hz.

My 5.1 home cinema uses a Marantz Cinema 70 and the LR pre-outs feed the Devialets which are configured in bypass mode for TV duties. The other channels are powered by the AVR

To quote Austin Powers, for shits and giggles I set the Marantz to Pure Direct (to bypass room correction and subs) and played some tunes using Roon (over Airplay 2). I toggled back to the Devialet 2.0 set up (with no subs , or HP/LP filters) and very unscientifically (not accurately level matched) listened to the same music.

It was not night and day by any measure. If I was played the two setups blinds a few times randomly I honestly don’t know whether I’d be able to call it reliably.

Perhaps I’ll try this over the weekend with help from my wife.

It’s a real lesson for me in what we can hear vs what we want to hear once serious money has been spent ! Thinking now I get one of the little chip amps that tested so well recently and a mini dsp and see how this sounds!!

I honestly think that I am hearing the room as much as the electronics , perhaps that’s the key lesson. Interested to hear if people are surprised by this experience ….

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

The truth is simply that you have to work pretty hard to achieve actual, real "night and day" differences between most reasonably decent audio equipment. It's all designed by humans with human ears and years and years of prior engineering experience. Human audio preferance largely inhabits a fairly narrow band and anything that sits too far removed from that band is seen as pretty obviously flawed and quickly revealed as such. Most stuff sounds pretty damn good and under normal listening conditions is not all that notably distinguishable.

 

[LouB]

Not at all, because I did a very similar listening test with A Yamaha AVR & a Marantz PM8006. Music only. 2 channel & used a decibel meter for levels. There was very very minor difference in sound & I wouldn't say one was any better than the other.
I do think (though I haven't tested yet) you can get "night & day" differences with speaker changes.

 

[CapMan]

Good to hear of similar experiences! I’m certain the room and speakers are the major part of the sound characteristic I hear.

Make one realise how very hard it it is to audition new electronics at a dealer in a meaningful way.

I bought the Devialets when I was running larger speakers and no subs, and had a lovely SME turntable. They are so configurable something like a Swiss Army knife!

Nowadays I need to stream via Roon and to be able to power the fronts from the AVR for movies. I have small speakers and subs. The devialets do it just fine, but I wonder what a more proportional alternative would be ??

 

[Steve Dallas]

I have two pathways in my media room in which I can listen to stereo music with and without subs. One involves a PC as streamer running Dirac connected to a near SOTA DAC and integrated amp. The other involves an AVR. If I am honest with myself, I can hear the difference between the DRC and nothing more. As a result, I mostly use the AVR pathway.

 

[CapMan]

That’s a really interesting perspective. I eq my subs using the onboard SVS DSP and that is all I eq. The mains have a high pass filter on them, but no eq.

I wonder if I could set up the AVR as 2.1 for music with HP/LP filters, but without invoking any of the audyssey eq .

 

[CapMan]

As a further edit - the comparison works favourably in 2.0 - ie mains running full range in pure direct mode on the AVR .

When I try stereo mode (2.1) and use the sub integration on the AVR it kinda falls apart.

 

[SorenTyson]

I did a similar experiment as the op several years ago with friends. One was digital -> benchmark dac1 -> amplifier. The other was digital-> Yamaha receiver, analogue out -> Dac1 -> amplifier. Also no night/day difference if any at all.

 

[Chrispy]

Not surprising, I just use avrs for most of my setups now, use some of my old 2ch gear in only one room now, altho my 2ch gear didn't have bass management or digital capabilities originally (altho I can add now via minidsp units and external dac). Plus I like multich audio (movies as well as music) so 2ch gear is just too limited....and when I did transition to my first avrs from my 2ch separates, that fabled huge night and day difference was just nowhere to be found, even on 2ch sources.

 

[kemmler3D]

So to be clear, you were comparing the devialet amp vs. the AVR? The harbeths aren't that sensitive so I actually wouldn't be surprised if you heard some difference in low bass, (50wpc "only" gets you 100dB out of the harbeths at most, but they bottom out at 75hz so IDK?) but really you're only going to hear an obvious difference in amps if one clips severely or blatantly runs out of juice.

 

[pseudoid]

It was not night and day by any measure.

Oyy! That is a complicated system.
Which was the 'night' and which was the 'day'?

 

[CapMan]

So to be clear, you were comparing the devialet amp vs. the AVR? The harbeths aren't that sensitive so I actually wouldn't be surprised if you heard some difference in low bass, (50wpc "only" gets you 100dB out of the harbeths at most, but they bottom out at 75hz so IDK?) but really you're only going to hear an obvious difference in amps if one clips severely or blatantly runs out of juice.

Best way to explain - In scenario 1 the Devialet is acting as streamer, DAC, power amp. In scenario 2 the AVR is the streamer, DAC, the Devialet is power amp

So in both cases the juice is provided by the devialets.

 

[kemmler3D]

Ah, so yeah I wouldn't expect to hear anything different in that case. The truth is that any DAC with SINAD in the 80s (or maybe even worse) will sound the same under normal use unless there's something wrong with it.

 

[Chrispy]

Best way to explain - In scenario 1 the Devialet is acting as streamer, DAC, power amp. In scenario 2 the AVR is the streamer, DAC, the Devialet is power amp

So in both cases the juice is provided by the devialets.

Then I'd expect even less difference (as opposed to avr amp vs devialet)

 

[rs172]

I'm so glad I found this thread
I have been using a Denon avr 4500h for 5.1.4 dolby atmos and 2.0 stereo music listening for the past years. The two front speakers are connected via a power amp from ANC-2100. I used the HEOS app to stream music and my frontend speakers were Klipsch rp-6000f tower speakers. I had a great soundstage, holographic, wonderful depth, and precise imaging. the base was very impactful, deep everything was very good.
Lately, I decided that I wanted to try something better, so I bought a new R2R ladder Gustard R26 DAC in order to achieve that "3d immersive soundstage" that all reviewers out there are raving about.
I read that connecting the dac through the AVR will not show its full potential, because avr's tend to convert analogue signals to digital and then pass it through their own dac again. So I bought a preamp from denafrips (Hestia).
Then I decided to buy a dedicated streamer, so I bought the Eversolo DMP A6 Master Edition. Everything sounded great, but the difference between the "old setup" via my AVR and the new set was pretty minor in all aspects. (The base sounded more controlled, but soundstage was pretty identical).
I thought to my self that my system is probably not resolving enough, so I decided to swap my front end speakers to Kef R7 Meta. The sound changed a lot and became much better, but still when comparing the two systems, with the new speakers, the difference is pretty minor. The dedicated stereo system's soundstage is wider, a smidge deeper with a bit more air and with a bit more clarity, but again, the differences are definitely not night and day. Both of the"chains" are connected to a Schiit sys passive preamp so I could switch between them easily to the same poweramp.
I know the Denon avr-4500h has a great dac section from AKM and is not considered to be an entry level receiver, so maybe that is the reason or, all the reviewer's hype trains are all crap and biased, I don't really know. The next step is going to be upgrading my poweramp, thinking of buying the NAD M23.
To sum it all up, the dedicated Eversolo dmp A6 m.a- Gustard R26- Denafrips Hestia does sound better from the Denon AVR-4500h but not by a mile. Maybe a better AMP will show the differences even more, I'll write an update after buying it.