Well, you tell me! I am anxious to test it but then there are all these other requests.
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Choosing between Denon X8500H, X4700H and X3700H AVRs
- Thread starter bigguyca
- Start date
Bet you will be glad to test something other than a Denon for a while (after the quick retest of the 6700)!
It is pretty amazing the level of detail we now know on a just released product line. Usually it would be quite a while before we would have any bench tests (if any).
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- May 31, 2020
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This one is the most important! Many superficial reviews already out there, but we need the real deal.
Indeed. What's more I saw some measurements of the new Marantz SR8015 performed by the company and they are identical in format and parameters to mine! That is including using volume control 82.5 to reach 2 volt output!
Looks like the "penalty" for Marantz version is not as big as it was with other units down the line.
That is fantastic... both them sharing with you the new SR8015 measurements (which look good) and the fact that they are using the same parameters. Very cool.
Wow, that's a nice surprise! May be they now know you are watching so they tuned the HDAMs now for transparency instead of injecting certain harmonics lol!! If the SR7015 and SR7016 measured as good as that then I am willing to give it a try.
Updated 6700 review is out: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/denon-avr-x6700h-avr-review-updated.15484/
jalaute
Member
The 3700/4700 each have 9 channels of internal amplification (and 11 ch of processing). The options to "disconnect" internal amps are L/R and "all". The amp on/"off" internal/external SINAD concern is only an issue above 1.4V. If your amp (or volume preference) does not need more than 1.4V from the pre-amp, this is all a non-issue. The SINAD performance will be the same (the blue/red and green plots are all the same below 1.4V). Above 1.4V, the performance between the cases diverges pretty rapidly depending on the input level needed for your amplifier and listening (volume) preference.
If your intent is to turn "off" the 9 internal amp channels (all "off" option), and replace them with an external 5 channel amp for a 5.x system, you are correct about the performance at 2V (blue/red plots). This scenario could be extended up to a 9 or 11 channel system with the same blue/red plot performance using appropriately sized (channeled) external amp(s).
If however, you want to use any of the internal amps for more than the 5.x system above, you would need to use the L/R "off" option. In this scenario, your 5 channel amp would receive the L/R channels (blue/red plot) and 3 others (green plot), and you could use whatever internal channel(s) were left.
Off loading the L/R/C channels is probably the most popular scenario. The 2 options to do this are L/R "off" and all "off"
The L/R "off" case- L/R go to the external amp with blue/red plot performance and it gets the C channel with green plot performance, and all other internal amps are operational for a 9.x system. SINAD will be drive level dependent and have 2 different values- L/R and C.
The all "off" case- L/R/C go to the external amp with blue/red plot performance. No internal amps are available (all "off") for a 3.x system. This is what I think you are proposing but with a 5 channel external amp. Again, this scenario could yield a 5/7/9/11 channel system with blue/red plot performance (with the appropriate 5/7/9/11 channel external amp). SINAD will be drive level dependent and be consistent for all channels.
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Thanks Jalaute, your post is of a great help to understand the different options offered by the 2 « off » cases. However, since I am not an electronic engineer, I still have difficulties to figure out what would be the potential issues created by the following scenario:
A power amp is connected to the L /R channels. It needs 2V to reach full power. Such power amp is able to deliver around 400W (4Ohms) The 3 other channels are using internal amps.
The loudspeakers have an impedance of 4 ohms and a yield of 89 dB. In real listening conditions ( let’s say from 50 to 90dB), is there any chances to have a dramatic decrease of the SINAD of the center channel while maintening a SINAD above 90dB for the L/R channels?
any feedback regarding this scenario will be welcome!
The internal amps connected to the other channels do not cause any issues with SINAD as long as you do not go above reference lover (0 or 80 on your volume). To get 2V Amir has set the volume to 82.5 on the volume scale which is 2.5 higher than reference level. So under reference level, channels with the amps connected are also fine. Over, the amps clip and cause SINAD issues on the DAC. At least that is my understanding.
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Thanks Dj675! Crystal clear. Any idea of sound level (in dB) at the reference level?
Very, very loud in a home setting
I believe 85db average with peaks of 105db. I’m sure there is a link on ASR somewhere discussing it, but here is another one from acoustic frontiers:http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314thx-reference-level/
I tend to stay in the ballpark of -10 (so 10dB less than reference). On occasion I might go a little higher, but don’t listen at reference level. I generally find it too loud.
Many thanks! Very informative!Very, very loud in a home setting
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013314thx-reference-level/
I tend to stay in the ballpark of -10 (so 10dB less than reference). On occasion I might go a little higher, but don’t listen at reference level. I generally find it too loud.
Question. Buying a 4700H. I will use an amp for the L/R. If I put it in 11.1 mode and turn off the 2 amps. Will I get 97.5 in 2 channel and 5.1 mode? Or do I need amps/speakers hooked up for all output?
- Thread Starter
- #96
Amir is testing these AVR's used without Audyssey. Do you believe 80/0dB on the volume control when using Audyssey will output 2V - 2.5dB? How have you determined this?
Without using Audyssey, why do you call 82.5, 2.5dB higher than reference? Reference to what?
Had not thought of that before that volume is without audyssey being used. So no, I wouldn’t have any idea what it is relative to reference level. Thanks for pointing this out.
The issue with pre out noise level wouldn't be only applicable for pre outs , rt ? It in turn would affect the signal via speaker out too, when pre out signal internally , is over 1.5V.
I wish the fix , if there is, can be done for existing AVR versions
I wish the fix , if there is, can be done for existing AVR versions
The power transistors can run hot and are designed for that.
The electrolytic capacitors are a different story. I wonder what type capacitors are located in the vicinity of the hot areas in those AVRs. Normally each 10C T increase results in 1/2 of the electrolytic capacitor lifespan. As an example, a high quality electrolytic capacitor for audio by Nichicon is rated at 2000 hours at 105C, so it would be 4000h at 95C, etc. (https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/293/e-uka-1512253.pdf ). Some endurance caps may have quite higher endurance rating of 6000 hours or more at 105C. 4000h is not that much assuming 6h of use a day: (4000/6) / 30 = 22 months only.
- Thread Starter
- #100
Choosing between the X8500H, X6700H, X4700H and X3700H AVRs (Updated)
The power differences between the X8500H, X6700H, X4700H and X3700H are about 1dB. If the requirement is for an AVR with only the internal amplifiers used, and with the number of power amplifiers that the X3700H or X4700H provide, then the lower price products provide a little cleaner power with about 1% less output. While the preamps of the X8500H and X6700H are the cleanest in the group, the good (actually a little disappointing), but not great distortion performance of the power amplifier channels is the limiting factor in the X8500H and X6700H power amplifier performance. There is little to no reason in this use case of 100% internal power amplifier channels, to choose the X6700H or X8500H unless based on features important to a specific user. This is good news. It means that there are low cost options with excellent performance.
If more power amplifier channels are required than the X3700H or X4700H provide then of course the X6700H with 11 channels, and the X8500 with 13 channels are the obvious choices.
The real advantage of the X8500H is when the preamp outputs will be used, especially if a mix of preamp outputs and internal power amplifier channels are used. The ability to disconnect the preamps from the power amplifiers on a channel-by-channel basis is a significant advantage in this case. Purchase of say a three channel power amplifier for the L/C/R channels and driving it with clean preamp outputs while still being able to use all of the good internal amplifiers, is a very cost effective, as well a very good performing solution. External power for only a few channels is clearly much more cost effective then using external power amplifiers for all channels.
For preamp-only use, the preamp outputs of the X8500H are a bit cleaner, which is nice. The X6700H is still excellent in the world of AVR’s. X3700H and X4700H are very good. Little is given up with the budget choices. It is very unfortunate that Marantz really doesn't enter much into consideration at present with its non-standard reconstruction filters and HDAM distortion issues. Amir’s future measurements at ASR over the coming months of the new generation of Marantz AVR’s and AVP’s will reveal if this situation has changed.
As with the power amplifiers, if only the X8500H or X6700H have enough preamp channels to meet requirements then they are the obvious choice. These two units provide the best measured preamp performance as well, so there is no compromise.
The measurements in ASR have provided some amazingly good news for a wide variety of potential AVP and AVR purchasers.
The power differences between the X8500H, X6700H, X4700H and X3700H are about 1dB. If the requirement is for an AVR with only the internal amplifiers used, and with the number of power amplifiers that the X3700H or X4700H provide, then the lower price products provide a little cleaner power with about 1% less output. While the preamps of the X8500H and X6700H are the cleanest in the group, the good (actually a little disappointing), but not great distortion performance of the power amplifier channels is the limiting factor in the X8500H and X6700H power amplifier performance. There is little to no reason in this use case of 100% internal power amplifier channels, to choose the X6700H or X8500H unless based on features important to a specific user. This is good news. It means that there are low cost options with excellent performance.
If more power amplifier channels are required than the X3700H or X4700H provide then of course the X6700H with 11 channels, and the X8500 with 13 channels are the obvious choices.
The real advantage of the X8500H is when the preamp outputs will be used, especially if a mix of preamp outputs and internal power amplifier channels are used. The ability to disconnect the preamps from the power amplifiers on a channel-by-channel basis is a significant advantage in this case. Purchase of say a three channel power amplifier for the L/C/R channels and driving it with clean preamp outputs while still being able to use all of the good internal amplifiers, is a very cost effective, as well a very good performing solution. External power for only a few channels is clearly much more cost effective then using external power amplifiers for all channels.
For preamp-only use, the preamp outputs of the X8500H are a bit cleaner, which is nice. The X6700H is still excellent in the world of AVR’s. X3700H and X4700H are very good. Little is given up with the budget choices. It is very unfortunate that Marantz really doesn't enter much into consideration at present with its non-standard reconstruction filters and HDAM distortion issues. Amir’s future measurements at ASR over the coming months of the new generation of Marantz AVR’s and AVP’s will reveal if this situation has changed.
As with the power amplifiers, if only the X8500H or X6700H have enough preamp channels to meet requirements then they are the obvious choice. These two units provide the best measured preamp performance as well, so there is no compromise.
The measurements in ASR have provided some amazingly good news for a wide variety of potential AVP and AVR purchasers.