Card carrying objectivists

[Cosmik]

we come back to the point of commerce, snake-oil marketing, and the audiophool media.

I am so far removed from any of that BS that it hardly impinges on me at all - I simply don't notice it anymore.

 

[Sal1950]

I am so far removed from any of that BS that it hardly impinges on me at all - I simply don't notice it anymore.

Not that far removed, you hear claims and talk of such things here most every day.

 

[svart-hvitt]

The arguments have left the lofty realm of ideas and are back firmly in the realms of grubby commerce!
Nevertheless, as mentioned in @oivavoi 's comment above, he has created speakers that some people say are the best ever, and within the confines of a clean, clear 'objective' vision of what is necessary. Maybe he has fluked it; maybe the listeners are biased. But to me, it all hangs together in a very simple, compelling, elegant, way.

OK, let me try and get the Grimm/Kii case back on the thread track again.

Science - balanced by objectivism and our understanding of subjectivism (i.e. subjects’ perception and preferences - is a fragile thing. Just a little tilting here and there can give opposite conclusions (case in point is AtomicBob’s and Amir’s measurements vs their comments on the same data).

The fragility of science depends on integrity. That’s why ethics was such a central part in the Hippocratoc oath, and is a central part of a PhD at a good university. Without integrity there can be no science.

So when I see cables, clocks and «revolutionary» designs I become a bit skeptical. Does it work? Is it science based?

In the first specifications documentation for the Kii Three, it was claimed that the speakers go down to 20 Hz. Now, all of a sudden, specifications say 30 Hz. Is it that difficult to measure a speaker? Was it just a typo, or did lack of integrity push standards a bit?

In another comment above you argued that people can’t hear if a speaker is good (i.e. accurate, neutral) or not:

«Virtually no one has heard a neutral system, so it is not possible to say whether people prefer neutral or not».

Now, you turn around and argue for the opposite:

«...he has created speakers that some people say are the best ever».

Whom can we trust? That’s a key question in science. I am surprised when Grimm/Kii audio are portrayed as examples of excellence in audio science. Shouldn’t we set the bar higher? Or is lying OK in science as long as you just lie a little?*

*I use low distortion cables at $1000 and the $3000 clock for «imaging» as examples of lie. Changing the speaker specs from 20 Hz capacity to 30 Hz looks at best like a convenient typo. Please correct me if you think the cable and clock issue can be verified.

 

[Purité Audio]

Kii bashing across several forums, you really do not like Bruno do you, did he kick your dog?
Keith

 

[svart-hvitt]

Kii bashing across several forums, you really do not like Bruno do you, did he kick your dog?
Keith

Kii pushing across several forums, does he feed your dog?



Seriously, I think the Kii story is highly interesting from a marketing, masses/crowd perspective. I am sorry if I get too carried away, but there are issues in the Kii story that deserves asking questions IMO.

 

[oivavoi]

I have also become more skeptical towards Bruno Putzeys' status as an audio guru. There are some authorities in audio I put great trust in, because they seem to me to put the pursuit of truth above any commercial interests they may have (and there are audio reserarchers who don't have commercial affiliations at all). Putzeys is no longer among those I put great trust in, partly because he sells such insanely overpriced products (check out the Mola Mola brand). I have also never heard any word of actual controlled listening tests which demonstrate the superiority of his amplifiers or dacs over competing products. That doesn't detract from some of his accomplishments: The Ncore objectively measures better than most other class d amplifiers, and both the Grimm LS1 and the Kii Three are objectively well-performing loudspeakers. But whenever I read his statements these days, I read them just as much as words from a salesman as words from a truth-seeking engineer.

Now all people who sell audio have commercial interests, of course. But there still seems to me to be some who are more honest than others. I loved reading this interview with Roger Sanders, for example: https://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/11/interview-with-roger-sanders.html
In spite of the undeniable cockiness ("there is no speaker made that can match the performance of mine"), he has a refreshing way of challenging audio dogma (claiming that mp3 of a certain quality is indistinguishable from hi-rez, etc).

 

[Jakob1863]

You should never take anyones word in audio for granted (if it comes to sound quality consideration, design rules following conclusions and so on) not only if you are suspicious of financial interests.
Just look at the arguments and use what was said as food for thought.
Evaluation is done by listening and there is no guarantee that your perception work the same way as the (alleged or real) Audio Guru´s......

Using any supposed or real (?hidden?) motiviations as evaluation rule leads unfortunately quite often in the wrong directions.......

 

[oivavoi]

You should never take anyones word in audio for granted (if it comes to sound quality consideration, design rules following conclusions and so on) not only if you are suspicious of financial interests.
Just look at the arguments and use what was said as food for thought.
Evaluation is done by listening and there is no guarantee that your perception work the same way as the (alleged or real) Audio Guru´s......

Using any supposed or real (?hidden?) motiviations as evaluation rule leads unfortunately quite often in the wrong directions.......

True. Wise words!

 

[SIY]

I dunno, there's some very clever ideas in the Kii speakers, and the measurements (as shown in Jan Didden and Paul Wilke's review) bear out the claims. I've heard a few models at hifi shows and thought that, considering the venue, they were quite good. Not my favorite speakers ever, but ones I could be happy with.

Sadly, my wife has vetoed any of my favorites. The only reason I even have what I do is because I owned them before I met her.

 

[Purité Audio]

I have also become more skeptical towards Bruno Putzeys' status as an audio guru. There are some authorities in audio I put great trust in, because they seem to me to put the pursuit of truth above any commercial interests they may have (and there are audio reserarchers who don't have commercial affiliations at all). Putzeys is no longer among those I put great trust in, partly because he sells such insanely overpriced products (check out the Mola Mola brand). I have also never heard any word of actual controlled listening tests which demonstrate the superiority of his amplifiers or dacs over competing products. That doesn't detract from some of his accomplishments: The Ncore objectively measures better than most other class d amplifiers, and both the Grimm LS1 and the Kii Three are objectively well-performing loudspeakers. But whenever I read his statements these days, I read them just as much as words from a salesman as words from a truth-seeking engineer.

Now all people who sell audio have commercial interests, of course. But there still seems to me to be some who are more honest than others. I loved reading this interview with Roger Sanders, for example: https://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/11/interview-with-roger-sanders.html
In spite of the undeniable cockiness ("there is no speaker made that can match the performance of mine"), he has a refreshing way of challenging audio dogma (claiming that mp3 of a certain quality is indistinguishable from hi-rez, etc).

Mola-Mola are Part of Hypex, I am not sure of the relationship between Jan ( Hypex) and Bruno.
Also I am not sure how much of the LS1 was due to Bruno, although the speaker did use Hypex amps.
The Kiis are cracking loudspeakers, I know Svart is a huge genelec fan but subjectively and objectively the THREEs are much better than his favourite the 8351’s.
I am sure other speaker manufacturers will follow the lead of Kii and Dutch&Dutch, I was slightly disappointed hat B&O didn’t create a ‘mini’ 90 with their new 50 loudspeaker.
Keith

 

[svart-hvitt]

I have also become more skeptical towards Bruno Putzeys' status as an audio guru. There are some authorities in audio I put great trust in, because they seem to me to put the pursuit of truth above any commercial interests they may have (and there are audio reserarchers who don't have commercial affiliations at all). Putzeys is no longer among those I put great trust in, partly because he sells such insanely overpriced products (check out the Mola Mola brand). I have also never heard any word of actual controlled listening tests which demonstrate the superiority of his amplifiers or dacs over competing products. That doesn't detract from some of his accomplishments: The Ncore objectively measures better than most other class d amplifiers, and both the Grimm LS1 and the Kii Three are objectively well-performing loudspeakers. But whenever I read his statements these days, I read them just as much as words from a salesman as words from a truth-seeking engineer.

Now all people who sell audio have commercial interests, of course. But there still seems to me to be some who are more honest than others. I loved reading this interview with Roger Sanders, for example: https://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/11/interview-with-roger-sanders.html
In spite of the undeniable cockiness ("there is no speaker made that can match the performance of mine"), he has a refreshing way of challenging audio dogma (claiming that mp3 of a certain quality is indistinguishable from hi-rez, etc).

On Roger Sanders: Quite a long and entertaining read!

Recommended!

EDIT: His remarks support my view that every serious audio company should be open on the research that went into the products. Technical papers are a minimum for an engineering focused company. Academic papers should be obligatory for science based companies.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I thought you were one of the objective guys?

I am. But if we are talking happiness and satisfaction well you can't argue with happy customers. Maybe they are happy for the wrong reasons. But happy they are.

 

[Blumlein 88]

How do people know they prefer neutral or not if they have never heard it? As we are all aware (these days), only a very unusual speaker can be said to be anything like neutral. Virtually no one has heard a neutral system, so it is not possible to say whether people prefer neutral or not.

Where is my logic wrong on that?

Because it has been tested and found that as systems become more neutral in responding listeners favor that over other systems departing from neutrality. While blind and without the influence of price, brand or reputation of course. Introduce those other features and you'll have new factors involved which surprisingly or not might mean not everyone chooses neutral under those conditions.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Kii bashing across several forums, you really do not like Bruno do you, did he kick your dog?
Keith

I like Bruno. His views voiced now sometimes directly contradict early things he said. Like saying making cables of silver and teflon was actually a terrible idea because it was about the most tribo-electric combination possible. Then going on a decade later to make just such cables (expensive ones too) for Grimm. He had his explanations of course, but to me they don't hold up especially for any cable costing what those did.

I do think Bruno has become the Smart Engineer:

I think he still designs fantastic things and unlike some other expensive gear they are SOTA gear most of the time. A little easy profit makes life easier. After you swim against the tide for so long maybe it makes sense to grab some of the energy in it to suit your own purposes.

 

[svart-hvitt]

I like Bruno. His views voiced now sometimes directly contradict early things he said. Like saying making cables of silver and teflon was actually a terrible idea because it was about the most tribo-electric combination possible. Then going on a decade later to make just such cables (expensive ones too) for Grimm. He had his explanations of course, but to me they don't hold up especially for any cable costing what those did.

I do think Bruno has become the Smart Engineer:

I think he still designs fantastic things and unlike some other expensive gear they are SOTA gear most of the time. A little easy profit makes life easier. After you swim against the tide for so long maybe it makes sense to grab some of the energy in it to suit your own purposes.

Making money is important.

Putzeys reminds me a bit of Daniel Weiss. Weiss sells cables and über expensive gear - 2-3 times the price of his pro gear - to audiophiles. But I’ve never seen Weiss claiming better sound in expensive cables and his audiophile line of gear. He has chosen to focus on different features and looks.

So same same but different. I think the Weiss way is more intelligent and of higher integrity because he doesn’t need to lie.

 

[Sal1950]

I do think Bruno has become the Smart Engineer:

Money corrupts, Absolute Money corrupts Absolutely.

 

[Sal1950]

Making money is important.

Putzeys reminds me a bit of Daniel Weiss. Weiss sells cables and über expensive gear - 2-3 times the price of his pro gear - to audiophiles. But I’ve never seen Weiss claiming better sound in expensive cables and his audiophile line of gear. He has chosen to focus on different features and looks.

So same same but different. I think the Weiss way is more intelligent and of higher integrity because he doesn’t need to lie.

Aren't we beginning to see maybe a taste of this over at Benchmark too?

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have been using my own money to buy kit to play my music recordings now for almost 50 years. When I first became interested in improving the quality of the sound I got at home the mass market kit was pretty nondescript sounding and better quality kit was the realm of hobbyists and small engineering companies.
Over the intervening years the business has turned itself inside-out, and now there is a lot of modestly priced source and amplification equipment which is transparent and a lot of enthusiast kit which is not only stupidly, ridiculously, obscenely expensive but doesn't perform as well as the aforesaid modestly priced kit.
I am baffled.
Speakers continue to be limiting, most of the people I know would not consider speakers bigger than a shoebox to be acceptable and want them on the wall or in a corner so the availability of inexpensive transparent electronics doesn't help them much.

 

[sergeauckland]

I have been using my own money to buy kit to play my music recordings now for almost 50 years. When I first became interested in improving the quality of the sound I got at home the mass market kit was pretty nondescript sounding and better quality kit was the realm of hobbyists and small engineering companies.
Over the intervening years the business has turned itself inside-out, and now there is a lot of modestly priced source and amplification equipment which is transparent and a lot of enthusiast kit which is not only stupidly, ridiculously, obscenely expensive but doesn't perform as well as the aforesaid modestly priced kit.
I am baffled.
Speakers continue to be limiting, most of the people I know would not consider speakers bigger than a shoebox to be acceptable and want them on the wall or in a corner so the availability of inexpensive transparent electronics doesn't help them much.

That's exactly where I'm at. As a gross generalisation, cheap stuff is good, expensive stuff is crap.

That troubles me, why a 1983 loudspeaker like the then £100 B&W DM110 or KEF Coda 3 should have a flatter frequency response than the multi thousand pound Boenick or many others of today.

S

 

[Frank Dernie]

That's exactly where I'm at. As a gross generalisation, cheap stuff is good, expensive stuff is crap.

That troubles me, why a 1983 loudspeaker like the then £100 B&W DM110 or KEF Coda 3 should have a flatter frequency response than the multi thousand pound Boenick or many others of today.

S

What amazed me almost as much as the Boenicke frequency response, resonances and distortion was the fact that they sell a special model with resonators and Harmonix dots for ~140% extra.