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I hope @FrantzM doesn't mind me quoting his post on another thread. I think it is a good jumping off point for a discussion.
Hi
While I have become a card-carrying "objectivist", I believe we need to take into account what we perceive, rightly or wrongly. Measurements came to be, to ascertain some of our perceptions , not the other way around. In my book there are differences between gear that under a given set of measurements sound the same. THD in particular as usually measured remains in my book as an insufficient metric, with most any units exhibiting vanishingly small level of such while sounding to my ear quite different. In the here and now, I would like members to continue posting their subjective impression even if it is to be challenged or even later reversed with proper observations, tests protocols , etc .. Such can only advance our knowmledge rather than declaring (hydrogen-audio-like) that we have reached perfection and that every gear sounds the same. Itt remains true that the differences may not be as great as the hyperbole would lead to believe, but we are again in the psychology of human emotions and perceptions: What is "small" and/or insignificant ( loudness wars among others) for most humans in term of audio differences may not be for the audiophiles.
On this, I have struggled also with the MiniDSP accessories in the signal chain. I am not yet persuaded that all DACs sound the same and am not pleased both emotionally and intellectually with the notion of cascading AD to DA conversions.. Something has to give and it usually does with a large degree of insatisfaction... subliminal often ... many find themselves not listening to their stereo as often.
The goal of these measurements should be IMO to further the enjoyment of reproduced music in one's home.
Measurements came to be to ascertain some of our perceptions, not the other way around he says. Maybe, maybe not I say. The measurements that stuck around I would agree.
The bigger question is declaring we have reached perfection and all gear sounds the same. I would ask, what would convince you such a thing is true? (not just FrantzM, but a question to the larger audience here).
Now it is my opinion everything other than transducers are fully transparent to us and exceed our ability to hear it. Caveats include things designed to have a "sound", and poorly designed gear. Poorly designed gear still happens even at elevated pricing. Though it seems unnecessary. Items like the Topping DACs show that inexpensive gear can be very good.
We also have gear people seem to love for the sound. Certain tube gear for instance. Maybe fully transparent gear isn't really the solution for maximum satisfaction for music/gear lovers. Quite often extremely high fidelity gear is declared sterile sounding. Colorful gear like colorful decorating can be satisfying for the taste shown in the endeavor.
How much is psychological? Firstly that despite intellectually knowing gear should sound the same you come to the conclusion over time or casual use that somehow it is still doesn't? We get influenced by so many things even the shape, size and cost of something. Even after you have "shot it out" in blind testing and could not hear any gear vs another you still find yourself (or I should say myself) equating certain sound qualities to one device vs another. Level match it and try blind and it all disappears yet it can reappear all the same. Measure it till the cows come home finding no reason for a difference and yet experience hearing it differ all the same. Of course I was infected with audiophilia decades ago. Those starting out without the infection might not have such a hard time.
Also mentioned is a subliminal sense of dissatisfaction which sometimes leaves one listening to their music less often. That too has a psychological element to it that goes beyond the performance of the gear. We get some satisfaction of a goal obtained by hearing differences, selecting gear, thinking what we have has been assembled with care, taste, and discernment. Even if the sound quality is not diminished or even altered one bit the psychological attachment, satisfaction, and the entire listening experience is different when one has put together their gear vs saying "its all perfect just pick what you need for least cost". Audio becomes an appliance and you get about the same satisfaction from your rig as you do your refrigerator. You only notice it when it doesn't work.
So if it has become true, that short of speakers, I can provide a list so that you can pick any item on it knowing they all sound exactly the same, does this diminish the hobby, or the experience or your tendency to listen to music? Should one intentionally proceed with untrue assumptions if they result in being a happier audiophile? And if you have become a card carrying objectivist how do you reconcile your knowledge with the experience?
Hi
While I have become a card-carrying "objectivist", I believe we need to take into account what we perceive, rightly or wrongly. Measurements came to be, to ascertain some of our perceptions , not the other way around. In my book there are differences between gear that under a given set of measurements sound the same. THD in particular as usually measured remains in my book as an insufficient metric, with most any units exhibiting vanishingly small level of such while sounding to my ear quite different. In the here and now, I would like members to continue posting their subjective impression even if it is to be challenged or even later reversed with proper observations, tests protocols , etc .. Such can only advance our knowmledge rather than declaring (hydrogen-audio-like) that we have reached perfection and that every gear sounds the same. Itt remains true that the differences may not be as great as the hyperbole would lead to believe, but we are again in the psychology of human emotions and perceptions: What is "small" and/or insignificant ( loudness wars among others) for most humans in term of audio differences may not be for the audiophiles.
On this, I have struggled also with the MiniDSP accessories in the signal chain. I am not yet persuaded that all DACs sound the same and am not pleased both emotionally and intellectually with the notion of cascading AD to DA conversions.. Something has to give and it usually does with a large degree of insatisfaction... subliminal often ... many find themselves not listening to their stereo as often.
The goal of these measurements should be IMO to further the enjoyment of reproduced music in one's home.
Measurements came to be to ascertain some of our perceptions, not the other way around he says. Maybe, maybe not I say. The measurements that stuck around I would agree.
The bigger question is declaring we have reached perfection and all gear sounds the same. I would ask, what would convince you such a thing is true? (not just FrantzM, but a question to the larger audience here).
Now it is my opinion everything other than transducers are fully transparent to us and exceed our ability to hear it. Caveats include things designed to have a "sound", and poorly designed gear. Poorly designed gear still happens even at elevated pricing. Though it seems unnecessary. Items like the Topping DACs show that inexpensive gear can be very good.
We also have gear people seem to love for the sound. Certain tube gear for instance. Maybe fully transparent gear isn't really the solution for maximum satisfaction for music/gear lovers. Quite often extremely high fidelity gear is declared sterile sounding. Colorful gear like colorful decorating can be satisfying for the taste shown in the endeavor.
How much is psychological? Firstly that despite intellectually knowing gear should sound the same you come to the conclusion over time or casual use that somehow it is still doesn't? We get influenced by so many things even the shape, size and cost of something. Even after you have "shot it out" in blind testing and could not hear any gear vs another you still find yourself (or I should say myself) equating certain sound qualities to one device vs another. Level match it and try blind and it all disappears yet it can reappear all the same. Measure it till the cows come home finding no reason for a difference and yet experience hearing it differ all the same. Of course I was infected with audiophilia decades ago. Those starting out without the infection might not have such a hard time.
Also mentioned is a subliminal sense of dissatisfaction which sometimes leaves one listening to their music less often. That too has a psychological element to it that goes beyond the performance of the gear. We get some satisfaction of a goal obtained by hearing differences, selecting gear, thinking what we have has been assembled with care, taste, and discernment. Even if the sound quality is not diminished or even altered one bit the psychological attachment, satisfaction, and the entire listening experience is different when one has put together their gear vs saying "its all perfect just pick what you need for least cost". Audio becomes an appliance and you get about the same satisfaction from your rig as you do your refrigerator. You only notice it when it doesn't work.
So if it has become true, that short of speakers, I can provide a list so that you can pick any item on it knowing they all sound exactly the same, does this diminish the hobby, or the experience or your tendency to listen to music? Should one intentionally proceed with untrue assumptions if they result in being a happier audiophile? And if you have become a card carrying objectivist how do you reconcile your knowledge with the experience?
