Car Powertrain of the Future - E-Fuels, Fuel cells or Battery based

[Ron Texas]

That it does.
... and, yes, I realize we're talking about ions not the metal.

Not optimistic that there's a safe, environmentally-responsible, sustainable, and economical "battery" (electrochemical cell) technology out there.

Energizer!

 

[Blumlein 88]

Na,
see the truth behind the news ...
And day is night now, here.
Love You too, honey

In fact, in reality, in use, EV's catch fire at dramatically lower rates than ICE, and hybrids catch fire the most. Yes lithium battery fires are a different animal and some different measures to handle that would be good. On ships and elsewhere, there is not information to think EV fires are a bigger problem than ICE caused fires. Since people have made this an issue it strikes me as incredible this has become a worry about a whole industry that runs on one of the highest energy density, most volatile and easiest to catch fire substances in common use.....gasoline. We learned to handle it. It appears EV's are handling it better in terms of how often there is a fire and I don't doubt improvements will be made for when they do.

That Honey, is the news behind the news.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Conclusion:
most, if not all of these icidences are due to electrical failures.
So EV (Lithium driven batteries) are excluded.
Right?

Did never want to become polemic this way, esp. in 'science'. But Li harms landscapes, children, invironment etc. where mining.
Burning ships are problems of luxury...
.... Bloomberg reported right this way ... ?

No they aren't excluded, but EVs take measures which appear to work more often than ICE cars in terms of a fire happening. As for lithium harming ......so did lead, and we have learned to handle it, recycle more than 99% of it. The same will in time happen with lithium and perhaps other materials will supplant it in time. Everything in its time. Other materials didn't have to solve all of the problems that might happen in the future when they were put into use. Solutions happened as adoption proceeded. Same will happen with lithium.

 

[Mashcky]

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a..._it_time_to_ban_electric_vehicles_149623.html

And yet the same scaremongers on the left who have zero tolerance and want bans for small risks when it comes to everything from swimming pool diving boards, gas stoves, plastic straws, vaping, fireworks and so on, have a surprisingly high pain threshold when it comes to people dying or suffering critical injured from "green" electric battery fires.

This article is opinion containing little fact. The author conflates BEV autos with bicycles, when in fact BEV cars are less likely to catch fire than their ICE counterparts. https://www.kbb.com/car-news/study-electric-vehicles-involved-in-fewest-car-fires/

Edited for grammar and clarity.

 

[mhardy6647]

Energizer!

Like the M-B "AA Class" sedan.

 

[Mashcky]

@MediumRare the link I posted mentioned eBikes. Thank you for the additional information. Toyota claims their solid state battery technology mitigates the fire risk. A relative of mine owns a rent house which was badly damaged when an eBike battery charging in the garage caught fire. Overall, I believe eBikes should be banned. They can go 28 MPH with minimal pedaling effort. Some have a track mode switch which allows higher speeds with no effort. That combined with low visibility makes them unsafe. There is no requirement for a driver's license, license plate or insurance. The party will continue for a while until too many people get hurt. I nearly hit one in West Texas earlier this month.

Cars weight 3,000lbs and can reach 100 mph with no pedaling effort. The hood of SUVs and trucks limit visibility so pedestrians and cycles are difficult to see and can easily be killed…

 

[theREALdotnet]

No they aren't excluded, but EVs take measures which appear to work more often than ICE cars in terms of a fire happening. As for lithium harming ......so did lead, and we have learned to handle it, recycle more than 99% of it. The same will in time happen with lithium and perhaps other materials will supplant it in time. Everything in its time. Other materials didn't have to solve all of the problems that might happen in the future when they were put into use. Solutions happened as adoption proceeded. Same will happen with lithium.

How much longer are you prepared to wait? Lithium batteries have been in commercial use since the early ‘90s. EVs are being built, shipped and driven in considerable numbers now. As it stands now, we’re powerless against EV battery fires and have no handle on the environmental and health impacts they cause. Firefighters may be equipped with adequate PPS, but what about the unsuspecting public, for example when an EV (or four, they tend to cluster around the charge points) blows up in a parking garage? How are you going to protect yourself and your family from tasty compounds like lithium hexafuorophosphate, when they start pluming your way?

We urgently need to acknowledge the gaps in our preparedness with handling this technology, before it gets a greater foothold.

Greenwashing is the opposite of what’s needed now. I’m reminded at the darkened viewing glasses and lead cream the attendees of the Trinity test were given…

 

[EJ3]

View attachment 283673Here’s why H2 fuel cells will never make sense for autos. Plus, with silicon anodes and SS batteries, range and charge time will become non-issues.

E-fuels: how big a niche can they carve out for cars?

Sections of industry back synthetic alternatives to fossil fuels, but case is much stronger for aviation

www.theguardian.com

Just in case you haven't seen the Koenigsegg Free Valve ICE engine, I'll post it here:

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Koenigsegg's Tiny-Friendly-Giant (TFG): How Freevalve is re-Shaping the Industry's Perception of Internal Combustion Engines​

Abdu Elmagdoub blogs about his research experience with Koenigsegg so far, and how this research is re-shaping the industry's perception of internal combustion.​

April 22 2022
Author: Abdu Elmagdoub

To be a researcher in propulsion technologies at the brink of an ever-approaching environmental disaster comes with a heavy responsibility. It is clear that there is vast disagreement amongst OEMs as to what concludes a truly clean future. The one thing we can agree on is that we need to limit, and eventually discontinue, our consumption of earth’s non-renewable resources and rare earth elements by sustaining our ways of living to leave a healthy planet for the generations to follow. Some OEMs have adopted the Battery Electric Vehicle approach, however, constraints such as costs, supply constraints, infrastructure, and associated manufacturing emissions, are hindering their mass uptake. Therefore, it becomes of sound reason to embrace eclecticism by means of a multiple technology approach to meet current and future legislative emissions targets.

It is for this reason that I chose to pursue a PhD with my current industry partner, Koenigsegg’s Freevalve AB to develop new advanced control strategies for the all-new Tiny-Friendly-Giant (TFG) engine. Integrating Freevalve’s Fully Variable Valve Train (FVVT) technology, the twin-turbocharged engine is living proof of truly sustainable, renewable fuel focused, chemical energy converters. Outputting a total of 600 bhp from a 2-litre capacity, it is by example the most power dense engine ever to exist. Through the ability to control its valve independently, allowing mode specific lifts/durations/timings/de-activation, the engine is continuously operating at increased efficiency and potential zero emissions capability (depending on type of fuel used).

Koenigsegg’s interim plans are to include this engine in their world’s first hybrid 4-seater Mega Grand Tourer, Koenigsegg Gemera. Thanks to the TFG and its tri-electric motor configuration, the vehicle is estimated to deliver a total of 1,700 bhp of power and 3,500 Nm of torque to achieve 0-100 kph in under 2 seconds (new era Formula 1 cars 0-100 kph time is 2.6 seconds) and a top speed of 402 kph (250 mph). Considering the car weighs 1850 kg, seats 4 people, and has got a combined driving range of 1000 kms, those numbers are mighty impressive!
As part of our ongoing collaboration with Koenigsegg and Freevalve, I’ve relocated to Ängelholm. I had the honour of attending one of the first official shakedowns of the first test car (TC1), which was recorded and later published on Koenigsegg’s YouTube channel and throughout social media. Seeing and hearing the engine fire up with never seen before, industry-shaping, technology is a truly amazing experience that I will forever cherish. As I hope to make a small contribution to help pave the way for sustainable mobility and a cleaner future for forthcoming generations, I am excited to bring what I have learned through my years at undergraduate and postgraduate level universities to the practical world through my PhD in Artificial Intelligence with the University of Bath, AAPS, Freevalve, and Koenigsegg.

 

[Ron Texas]

Cars weight 3,000lbs and can reach 100 mph with no pedaling effort. The hood of SUVs and trucks limit visibility so pedestrians and cycles are difficult to see and can easily be killed…

You equivocate. Denial isn't a river in Egypt.

 

[mhardy6647]

Cars weight 3,000lbs and can reach 100 mph with no pedaling effort. The hood of SUVs and trucks limit visibility so pedestrians and cycles are difficult to see and can easily be killed…

3000 lbs (ca. 1350 kg)???
The new eeee-lectrickle* Cadillac Escalade: 9000 lb (ca. 4075 kg) of expensive fun!

Fortunately, the driver's attention will be riveted on the road around him, I'm sure -- GM went out of its way to minimize distractions in the cabin

____________
* This phonetic pronunciation is an homage to Donavan's Mellow Yellow.

 

[Ron Texas]

The hummer EV weighs over 5 tons.

 

[somebodyelse]

@MediumRare the link I posted mentioned eBikes. Thank you for the additional information. Toyota claims their solid state battery technology mitigates the fire risk. A relative of mine owns a rent house which was badly damaged when an eBike battery charging in the garage caught fire. Overall, I believe eBikes should be banned. They can go 28 MPH with minimal pedaling effort. Some have a track mode switch which allows higher speeds with no effort. That combined with low visibility makes them unsafe. There is no requirement for a driver's license, license plate or insurance. The party will continue for a while until too many people get hurt. I nearly hit one in West Texas earlier this month.

I'd go for suitably regulated rather than banned. In the UK to be treated like a pedal cycle an ebike can only assist your pedaling, and there are limits on power and maximum speed for assistance <20mph that keep them broadly comparable to a fit cyclist. Anything outside that is considered a motor vehicle, subject to the same license, insurance, MOT requirements and so on as a motorbike. On the manufacturing side there are rules that should keep everything relatively safe.

Where we have a problem is lack of enforcement of the existing rules. Checks on imported goods to see that they meet required standards were lax even before brexit, and seem to have got laxer since. This leads to a lot of noncompliant products being available, especially at the low end of the market. Amazon, eBay, Ali and the like facilitate this. Combine with a lack of policing and you have the sorts of problem you describe, but those things are _already_ illegal. Your 'track mode switch' has an ICE equivalent in removing the power restrictors used to make some motorbikes legal for learners.

 

[Fred H]

We don't have an EV because of long trips as a tiny percent of our total usage (the "range problem"). We don't have a hybrid because of the inelegance and perceived waste of two drive trains.

Decades ago I was told "Turbines are the best way to generate electricity." A while after that I saw on line a company in the Netherlands was making small -- the size of my fist -- plastic turbines. I can't find such a product now, but the thought of a (rentable) removable fuel tank + turbine generator has stuck in my mind as a potential solution to the EV range problem.

 

[Fred H]

In my ignorant reading a proton battery seems like a potential breakthrough: https://techxplore.com/news/2023-07-proton-battery-cheap-energy-storage.html.

 

[MediumRare]

Bloomberg predicts ICE vehicles will be with us for a very long time, even after they account for a minority of sales. I wonder if there will be other factors, such as fewer gas stations, fewer ICE mechanics, and other reasons for people to ditch their ICE vehicles.

 

[MediumRare]

Hot News: Battery giant says it’s launching a cheap LFP battery that solves all the major issues with EVs. Starts with over 400 mile range, charges quickly (meaning a 600-700 mile day is easily doable), cold-resistant, and safer. They say will be in actual cars within 9 months, meaning they are done with all the testing and have production ready to ramp up. https://electrek.co/2023/08/16/catl-new-fast-charging-battery-250-mi-10-min/

 

[Ron Texas]

View attachment 283673Here’s why H2 fuel cells will never make sense for autos. Plus, with silicon anodes and SS batteries, range and charge time will become non-issues.

E-fuels: how big a niche can they carve out for cars?

Sections of industry back synthetic alternatives to fossil fuels, but case is much stronger for aviation

www.theguardian.com

The graphic is misleading. It assumes 100% efficiency in generating, transporting and charging electricity. Turning petroleum into useful liquid fuel uses much less energy. Natural gas comes out of the ground nearly ready to use. It's processed to remove more valuable liquid hydrocarbons like propane. Pipeline transportation uses very little energy. The radical environmentalist goal of eliminating direct natural gas use for heating and cooking is a folly which will use more energy than it saves. That's because green electricity will require extensive networks of batteries which are produced with huge up front carbon emissions. Widespread adoption of nuclear power would result in lots of green electricity, but fear of nukes will prevent this.

 

[Ron Texas]

Just in case you haven't seen the Koenigsegg Free Valve ICE engine, I'll post it here:

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Koenigsegg's Tiny-Friendly-Giant (TFG): How Freevalve is re-Shaping the Industry's Perception of Internal Combustion Engines​

Abdu Elmagdoub blogs about his research experience with Koenigsegg so far, and how this research is re-shaping the industry's perception of internal combustion.​

April 22 2022
Author: Abdu Elmagdoub

To be a researcher in propulsion technologies at the brink of an ever-approaching environmental disaster comes with a heavy responsibility. It is clear that there is vast disagreement amongst OEMs as to what concludes a truly clean future. The one thing we can agree on is that we need to limit, and eventually discontinue, our consumption of earth’s non-renewable resources and rare earth elements by sustaining our ways of living to leave a healthy planet for the generations to follow. Some OEMs have adopted the Battery Electric Vehicle approach, however, constraints such as costs, supply constraints, infrastructure, and associated manufacturing emissions, are hindering their mass uptake. Therefore, it becomes of sound reason to embrace eclecticism by means of a multiple technology approach to meet current and future legislative emissions targets.

It is for this reason that I chose to pursue a PhD with my current industry partner, Koenigsegg’s Freevalve AB to develop new advanced control strategies for the all-new Tiny-Friendly-Giant (TFG) engine. Integrating Freevalve’s Fully Variable Valve Train (FVVT) technology, the twin-turbocharged engine is living proof of truly sustainable, renewable fuel focused, chemical energy converters. Outputting a total of 600 bhp from a 2-litre capacity, it is by example the most power dense engine ever to exist. Through the ability to control its valve independently, allowing mode specific lifts/durations/timings/de-activation, the engine is continuously operating at increased efficiency and potential zero emissions capability (depending on type of fuel used).

Koenigsegg’s interim plans are to include this engine in their world’s first hybrid 4-seater Mega Grand Tourer, Koenigsegg Gemera. Thanks to the TFG and its tri-electric motor configuration, the vehicle is estimated to deliver a total of 1,700 bhp of power and 3,500 Nm of torque to achieve 0-100 kph in under 2 seconds (new era Formula 1 cars 0-100 kph time is 2.6 seconds) and a top speed of 402 kph (250 mph). Considering the car weighs 1850 kg, seats 4 people, and has got a combined driving range of 1000 kms, those numbers are mighty impressive!
As part of our ongoing collaboration with Koenigsegg and Freevalve, I’ve relocated to Ängelholm. I had the honour of attending one of the first official shakedowns of the first test car (TC1), which was recorded and later published on Koenigsegg’s YouTube channel and throughout social media. Seeing and hearing the engine fire up with never seen before, industry-shaping, technology is a truly amazing experience that I will forever cherish. As I hope to make a small contribution to help pave the way for sustainable mobility and a cleaner future for forthcoming generations, I am excited to bring what I have learned through my years at undergraduate and postgraduate level universities to the practical world through my PhD in Artificial Intelligence with the University of Bath, AAPS, Freevalve, and Koenigsegg.

This is a technology masterpiece. Unfortunately, it will likely never see widespread adoption due to the insane regulatory push to completely eliminate fossil fuel use. I also wonder how long a small motor with 600 Hp will last. High boost pressures are likely to cause premature failure of the piston rings.

 

[Doodski]

This is a technology masterpiece. Unfortunately, it will likely never see widespread adoption due to the insane regulatory push to completely eliminate fossil fuel use. I also wonder how long a small motor with 600 Hp will last. High boost pressures are likely to cause premature failure of the piston rings.

The engine may use less rings altogether in effort to maximize volumetric efficiency at the loss of longevity. Too high a linear speed for those pistons and less rings = short life.

 

[MediumRare]

The graphic is misleading. It assumes 100% efficiency in generating, transporting and charging electricity. Turning petroleum into useful liquid fuel uses much less energy. Natural gas comes out of the ground nearly ready to use. It's processed to remove more valuable liquid hydrocarbons like propane. Pipeline transportation uses very little energy. The radical environmentalist goal of eliminating direct natural gas use for heating and cooking is a folly which will use more energy than it saves. That's because green electricity will require extensive networks of batteries which are produced with huge up front carbon emissions. Widespread adoption of nuclear power would result in lots of green electricity, but fear of nukes will prevent this.

So you’re saying the graphic should start at the generation source and cover all the losses between there and the use of the energy. I agree, but there’s no a priori reason to believe that syn fuel or H2 production will systematically be closer to the source than battery charging locations. Even if it were a 100% difference, the loss from electricity distribution is an average of 5%, not enough to matter. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq....on Administration,States in 2017 through 2021.