Can my AVR drive my new headphones?

[hestepige123]

Hi there!

I recently bought a pair of Sennheiser HD 560S for testing against my old trusty HD598's. So far I'm happy with them, but I'm noticing a bit of clipping here and there. This makes me wonder whether or not my AVR is capable of driving the headphones. The HD560S are rated at 120 ohms, while the older HD598 supposedly are about half that at 60 ohms.

My setup right now is an Audioquest Dragonfly Red --> MiniDSP 2x4HD --> Denon AVR-x2400h --> KEF LS50 or headphones.

I can't seem to find any information on the Denon AVR-x2400h pertaining to the front jack output and so I'm not sure whether or not they're rated to properly drive the headphones.

I realize that the AVR is very likely inferior to a dedicated headphone amp - so there's no need for you guys to point that out (although the magnitude of difference in quality might be interesting to me).

So my questions are these:
1. Should I expect an AVR of this type to be able to properly drive a pair of Sennheiser HD560S such that a comparison between the HD560S and HD598 will be fair (120ohms vs 60ohms)?
2. If this is not the case - could that be the source of the slight clipping I've been noticing or would the effect be something else?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Audioquest Dragonfly Red --> MiniDSP 2x4HD --> Denon AVR-x2400h --> KEF LS50 or headphones

Wonder why you need such a complex chain to drive a headphone.
What happens if you plug the headphone straight into the Red?

 

[kemmler3D]

Hey, welcome to ASR!

Unless you are playing the headphones super loud, you're probably hearing the AVR running out of juice. So you probably have the answer to your question.

A dedicated headphone amp doesn't need to be very expensive. The JDS Atom 2 kicks butt and is $129.

 

[Robin L]

Hey, welcome to ASR!

Unless you are playing the headphones super loud, you're probably hearing the AVR running out of juice. So you probably have the answer to your question.

A dedicated headphone amp doesn't need to be very expensive. The JDS Atom 2 kicks butt and is $129.

Also, Topping's L30 still has the best SINAD of all headphone amps, costs about as much as the JDS Atom 2. The Topping L30 II is the current revision, nearly as good as regards signal to noise ratio and distortion, has slightly more power. I'm really happy with my Topping L30.

 

[Robin L]

Hey, welcome to ASR!

Unless you are playing the headphones super loud, you're probably hearing the AVR running out of juice.

Unless the problem is with the Dragonfly either overloading the input of the AVR or running out of gas. My AVR's headphone out sounds alright (but I like the L30 better, for whatever reason). In any case, try connecting the headphones directly into the Dragonfly, see how that works out. I've got a very cheap DAP (Fiio's M3K) and hooked up to my Drop 6XX or AKG K371 headphones, sounds just fine.

 

[twsecrest]

Hi there!

I recently bought a pair of Sennheiser HD 560S for testing against my old trusty HD598's. So far I'm happy with them, but I'm noticing a bit of clipping here and there. This makes me wonder whether or not my AVR is capable of driving the headphones. The HD560S are rated at 120 ohms, while the older HD598 supposedly are about half that at 60 ohms.

My setup right now is an Audioquest Dragonfly Red --> MiniDSP 2x4HD --> Denon AVR-x2400h --> KEF LS50 or headphones.

I can't seem to find any information on the Denon AVR-x2400h pertaining to the front jack output and so I'm not sure whether or not they're rated to properly drive the headphones.

I realize that the AVR is very likely inferior to a dedicated headphone amp - so there's no need for you guys to point that out (although the magnitude of difference in quality might be interesting to me).

So my questions are these:
1. Should I expect an AVR of this type to be able to properly drive a pair of Sennheiser HD560S such that a comparison between the HD560S and HD598 will be fair (120ohms vs 60ohms)?
2. If this is not the case - could that be the source of the slight clipping I've been noticing or would the effect be something else?

Thanks in advance.

The Denon uses the same amplifier to drive speakers, to also drive the headphone jack.
So more than enough power, but because of impedance issues, the Denon does not deliver power that's best for drives headphones.
The DragonFly Red should do a better job of driving the 120-Ohm Senn HD560s
The HD598 are 50-Ohms.

Assume you connecting the DragonFly Red to a smartphone, why not just use bluetooth to connect the phone to the Denon?

 

[hestepige123]

Wonder why you need such a complex chain to drive a headphone.
What happens if you plug the headphone straight into the Red?

Hi Vincent, thanks for the reply!
My output for music is my desktop computer which is right next to my TV and speaker setup. Reason for the complex chain is that I only have the one DAC that needs to supply both my headphones and my speaker setup. So with my current hardware this is the only way to get proper sound to both without having to crawl around unplugging and plugging my Dragonfly. Not really ideal, I know.

But for the purposes of testing I should probably try out the Dragonfly Red as you guys are suggesting. I just never imagined that that little dongle would be able to drive the phones better than the chubby AVR would. I'll try it out!

 

[hestepige123]

So more than enough power, but because of impedance issues, the Denon does not deliver power that's best for drives headphones.
The DragonFly Red should do a better job of driving the 120-Ohm Senn HD560s
The HD598 are 50-Ohms.

I don't think I have a proper grasp on what these impedance issues are about. I looked at some articles a while back but they got me all confused. Do you know of any good comprehensive articles that explain what's required to drive headphones ideally?

Assume you connecting the DragonFly Red to a smartphone, why not just use bluetooth to connect the phone to the Denon?

While I don't know how one would connect the DAC to a smartphone what I can say is that I'm using the DAC because it was well reviewed as budget audiophile gear when I bought it and I don't really have much faith in inbuilt DACs. That might not be a well placed mistrust, I don't know.

 

[Jimbob54]

While I don't know how one would connect the DAC to a smartphone what I can say is that I'm using the DAC because it was well reviewed as budget audiophile gear when I bought it and I don't really have much faith in inbuilt DACs. That might not be a well placed mistrust, I don't know.

Silly question. Why not phone usb out to usb in on minidsp and cut out the dragonfly? I too suspect that da-ad might be the start of your problems.

 

[hestepige123]

Silly question. Why not phone usb out to usb in on minidsp and cut out the dragonfly? I too suspect that da-ad might be the start of your problems.

I'll take a look at that as well, thanks! How come the suspicion of the dragonfly - are they known to cause problems down the line?

 

[Jimbob54]

I'll take a look at that as well, thanks! How come the suspicion of the dragonfly - are they known to cause problems down the line?

Not the dragonfly per se. But you've got (I think ) an unnecessary conversion there. Do you use the dragonfly at max output into the minidsp? If you turn that down on your phone a bit do you still get the distortion /clipping ?

 

[hestepige123]

Not the dragonfly per se. But you've got (I think ) an unnecessary conversion there. Do you use the dragonfly at max output into the minidsp? If you turn that down on your phone a bit do you still get the distortion /clipping ?

I tried eliminating the dragonfly by playing directly from the minidsp and the problem persists. I'm thinking I need to rule out my test track actually being the issue here. I've tried playing it from my phone on my in ear WF-1000XM5s and only got very minimal clipping in comparison.

Any chance you could help me out? The track is Lorn - Acid Rain. The kick at 0:38-0:39 plays an especially noticeable clipping sound.

EDIT: Also getting a clip at 0:12 that I don't hear through the in ears.

 

[Jimbob54]

I tried eliminating the dragonfly by playing directly from the minidsp and the problem persists. I'm thinking I need to rule out my test track actually being the issue here. I've tried playing it from my phone on my in ear WF-1000XM5s and only got very minimal clipping in comparison.

Any chance you could help me out? The track is Lorn - Acid Rain. The kick at 0:38-0:39 plays an especially noticeable clipping sound.

EDIT: Also getting a clip at 0:12 that I don't hear through the in ears.

Just through ****** phone speaker I think that 38 second transient is either clipped on the recording or at least at or around full signal so will cause issues in a few playback chains. Have no reference for that music as to what it "should" sound like though.

 

[hestepige123]

Just through ****** phone speaker I think that 38 second transient is either clipped on the recording or at least at or around full signal so will cause issues in a few playback chains. Have no reference for that music as to what it "should" sound like though.

Thanks for the quick reply. Curious I don't notice it much on the in ears, but I guess it's just part of the track. Maybe the whole thread is pointless then. I think I'll take a trip to the shop where I bought the headphones and try them out on something primo.

Thanks to you and all the other posters here - what a great forum!

 

[Vincent Kars]

So with my current hardware this is the only way to get proper sound to both

Sorry, I still don't understand.
The AVR has both speaker and headphone out.
Your source is a laptop.

The Red is a USB DAC, it converts USB audio to analog. You can feed this analog output straight into the AVR using a 3.5 to 2x RCA
The MiniDSP 2x4HD also has USB input but as you are feeding it with the Red it is analog input to analog output. What is the use of this?
What happens if you skip the Red and use the USB input of the Mini to connect to your PC?

A lot of recording are way to hot (loudness war). Load this recording in a audio editor e.g. Audacity and check if it is hitting the 0 dBFS

 

[hestepige123]

Sorry, I still don't understand.
The AVR has both speaker and headphone out.
Your source is a laptop.

The Red is a USB DAC, it converts USB audio to analog. You can feed this analog output straight into the AVR using a 3.5 to 2x RCA
The MiniDSP 2x4HD also has USB input but as you are feeding it with the Red it is analog input to analog output. What is the use of this?
What happens if you skip the Red and use the USB input of the Mini to connect to your PC?

A lot of recording are way to hot (loudness war). Load this recording in a audio editor e.g. Audacity and check if it is hitting the 0 dBFS

Thank you for the reply! I use the MiniDSP for equalizing. What I've only just now realized is that the minidsp is of course converting to digital and back to analog again. Would it be correct to assume that the Dragonfly is then entirely redundant in the setup? Out of curiosity - if I had the "worlds best" DAC and passed its analog output through the minidsp would the minidsp then act as a bottleneck, limiting the audio to the quality of the last DAC in the chain (being the miniDSP)?

I'll take a look in audacity - thanks for the suggestion.

 

[twsecrest]

I don't think I have a proper grasp on what these impedance issues are about. I looked at some articles a while back but they got me all confused. Do you know of any good comprehensive articles that explain what's required to drive headphones ideally?


While I don't know how one would connect the DAC to a smartphone what I can say is that I'm using the DAC because it was well reviewed as budget audiophile gear when I bought it and I don't really have much faith in inbuilt DACs. That might not be a well placed mistrust, I don't know.

For best damping control with headphones, you want to plug headphones into a headphone jack with at least 10 times less impedance (Ohms) than the headphones.
HD-598 is 50-Ohms, so output impedance of 5-Ohms or less.
Sen HD560s is 120-Ohms, so output impedance of 12-Ohms or less.
Headphone jack on the Denon AVR-X2400H, output impedance of 75-Ohms or 150-Ohms or higher.

I might suggest removing the MiniDSP 2x4HD and replacing the it with a dedicated headphone amplifier, that comes with a line-output.
And connect that line-output, to the line-input on the X2400H.
The headphone amplifier could act line a pre-amp, to the Denon.

An xDuoo MT-601 or MT602 ($80?) would be a value budget option.
What would you budget?

 

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[Jimbob54]

Just through ****** phone speaker I think that 38 second transient is either clipped on the recording or at least at or around full signal so will cause issues in a few playback chains. Have no reference for that music as to what it "should" sound like though.

@hestepige123 Just listened through some decent IEM- the thumps arent as crackly/ distorted as I thought they would be on some proper kit- I am hearing some low level analog/ tape type crackle throughout so maybe you are picking that up too. But I do suspect (someone could probably look at the spectra of the song and confirm) that those thumps/ transients are likely full scale and could cause issues with digital clipping somewhere in that multiple conversion chain you have.

 

[Vincent Kars]

Would it be correct to assume that the Dragonfly is then entirely redundant in the setup?

Correct. It converts to analog. The Mini converts it back to digital than apply the DSP and converts to analog again.
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