Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[HammersRocco]

Maybe, but I note you didn't just "answer the question"

Because it is a logical fallacy. I am trying to help you here. Do not do that in ASR, is bad form.

Man we are bickering now.

Latah - will come back in a few days - pls feel free to have the last word.

 

[Galliardist]

just clarifying that is no need to call me "an audiophile" - that is mean!

I didn't. It wasn't your post, and I referred to the possible dilemma as "audiophile", not any individual.

 

[Galliardist]

Because it is a logical fallacy. I am trying to help you here. Do not do that in ASR, is bad form.

Man we are bickering now.

Latah - will come back in a few days - pls feel free to have the last word.

The degree of equivalence wasn't my point, though, was it?

One of the mistakes we make too often in our workplace is jumping straight into a "technical answer" and not seeing, or allowing our client to see. the real issue. Same, here.

I guess we end up leaving that point hanging, though.

 

[EJ3]

If the damned turntable sounds exactly the same as the cheaper, easier to use and more flexible option, when why would you choose it?

Surprisingly, there are around 9.215 posts here which include a lot of reasons. But for my part, and my hearing is shot, I can still hear the difference, certainly with a direct comparison, and I'm surprised you can't. though of course I haven't heard your exact setup.

If there is a difference, then there is a subjective preference to be had, and I guess it comes with the chance of an audiophile dilemma.

Why would I choose it?
Because that is what I WANT!
And I have a right to not want to all the time use what is objectively better.
(In my case, I have many choices in my system: CD (SONY RCD-W500C), Turntable (Technics SL-M3 & Dual 1229), 2 AKAI Reel to Reels (one with a built in 8 track player that I have never used), 2 cassette decks (JVC & Kenwood), 2 tuners (a modded for DXing NAD 4300 & a SONY XDR-S3HD).
And I do not stream. Why? Because, where I am, it is intermittent at best. And I have many other choices at any time.
Now, I do like to adjust things in each format (even to the point of changing the ratings of some capacitors) to make things both objectively & subjectively better (yes, closer to the "possible" digital perfection).
But that doesn't mean that I ONLY want to listen to "DIGITAL PERFECTION" all the time.
Obviously I could. But obviously I do not.
What I do not understand is why it should matter to anyone what format I want to listen to at any time.

 

[antcollinet]

But it is not clearly superior except on paper.

Well, yes it is.

I don't have one single LP where I can't hear surface noise between the tracks. Nor do I have one that is completely devoid end to end of a little crackle, or a light pop someweher (Even when using my amazing waxwing preamp - that, by the way, on it's own cost twice as much as a decent new CD transport, and 20x as much as the second hand CD player I actually use). I also have to treat them with kid gloves, and periodically clean them, to stop those artefacts getting worse.

I also have one or two older LP's that demonstrate significant distortion - I am assuming due to being played on substandard gear with a rusty nail as a stylus at some point in their life. But all vinyl wears over time no matter the gear.

Though I've never noticed inner groove distortion, or the lower "THD+N" while music is actually playing. I think I do notice a rollloff of higher frequencies, but have never ab'd it to check.

CD doesn't suffer from any of those things. And as pointed out by @MattHooper the market chose CD over vinyl very quickly, and it wasn't because of sighted bias.

But none of those things detract from the experience sufficiently to stop me getting immense pleasure from playing vinyl.

 

[Galliardist]

Why would I choose it?
Because that is what I WANT!
And I have a right to not want to all the time use what is objectively better.
(In my case, I have many choices in my system: CD (SONY RCD-W500C), Turntable (Technics SL-M3 & Dual 1229), 2 AKAI Reel to Reels (one with a built in 8 track player that I have never used), 2 cassette decks (JVC & Kenwood), 2 tuners (a modded for DXing NAD 4300 & a SONY XDR-S3HD).
And I do not stream. Why? Because, where I am, it is intermittent at best. And I have many other choices at any time.
Now, I do like to adjust things in each format (even to the point of changing the ratings of some capacitors) to make things both objectively & subjectively better (yes, closer to the "possible" digital perfection).
But that doesn't mean that I ONLY want to listen to "DIGITAL PERFECTION" all the time.
Obviously I could. But obviously I do not.
What I do not understand is why it should matter to anyone what format I want to listen to at any time.

And is anybody stopping you?

There's a lot of assumption here, that somebody is going to come and take away your tape decks, or all your turntables, or whatever. I'm certainly not.

If you understand that some of your choices are not "objectively better", why get so angry when someone suggests that it might not be "objectively better" or might not be the logical choice for someone who wants "objectively better"?

And if your circumstances mean you can't use a particular method to listen to music, I quite understand that. My circumstances restrict me in different ways. I effectively get one format, so why shouldn't I choose the "objectively better" one?

In fact, my position is that we should use what makes the most music available to us, given our circumstances and a good level of fidelity. I listened to LPs for twenty years because that was what I had, and I stopped for reasons of space and because my turntable died.
If streaming is not available to you, but tapes, radio broadcasts. records and CDs are, then that is absolutely what you should be doing. and if you WANT those things, so much the better!

 

[Holmz]

If the damned turntable sounds exactly the same as the cheaper, easier to use and more flexible option, when why would you choose it?

I got the TT almost 40 years ago.
The CDs were just out and I only got a CDAC a coupe of years ago

Surprisingly, there are around 9.215 posts here which include a lot of reasons. But for my part, and my hearing is shot, I can still hear the difference, certainly with a direct comparison, and I'm surprised you can't. though of course I haven't heard your exact setup.

If there is a difference, then there is a subjective preference to be had, and I guess it comes with the chance of an audiophile dilemma.

TT: is a Sota sapphire:
- Original SAIC we317 arm sports an Garrott Bros MM cart.
- a used Schroder CB9 arm sports a Aidas MC cart
Running into a VPS (Valve Phono Stage), which support two sources.
(The rest of course is a preamp and amps, speakers, etc.

DAC: is an RME AD-2 Pro. But an older TT (90s) was in the set up for a long time.

If you are in Melbourne the Dohmann at Nirvana is pretty swish, My system is a fraction of the cost, but not a long ways behind it, and much older.
Sort of at the bottom end of high-end. Maybe a Rega is just as good, I dunno.
Or maybe my hearing is shot, but the last time I checked it was fine.

Well, yes it is.

I don't have one single LP where I can't hear surface noise between the tracks. Nor do I have one that is completely devoid end to end of a little crackle, or a light pop here and there (Even when using my amazing waxwing preamp - that on it's own cost twice as much as a decent new CD transport, and 20x as much as the second hand CD player I actually use). I also have to treat them with kid gloves, and periodically clean them, to stop those artefacts getting worse.

I have some records where I hear the master tape hiss start, then the music plays, and at the end, the music fades into the master tape hiss, and then the tape hiss disappears.
Maybe my LPs are cleaner, or the less static or something.
I dunno.

I also have one or two older LP's that demonstrate significant distortion - I am assuming due to being played on substandard gear with a rusty nail as a stylus at some point in their life. But all vinyl wears over time no matter the gear.

Probably

Though I've never noticed inner groove distortion, or the lower "THD+N" while music is actually playing. I think I do notice a rollloff of higher frequencies, but have never ab'd it to check.

CD doesn't suffer from any of those things. And as pointed out by @MattHooper the market chose CD over vinyl very quickly, and it wasn't because of sighted bias.

It is different, but it is more like Beta versus VHS.
Objectively one was better.
Marketing also played a huge role in video like it also played in vinyl vs digital.. and from a business perspective, CDs better than LPs, and Streaming is better again.

But none of those things detract from the experience sufficiently to stop me getting immense pleasure from playing vinyl.

Me either…

Even those two songs videos I posted with the LP sounds, are sort pleasant and refreshing.
In spite of layering in the record noises onto the digital track.

I guess we could argue about hip-hop scratching being sold on CDs and the music made with TTs…

Or argue about the tech of F1 cars, but then smile in amazement at how a Lancia Stratos or an Audi Quattro can hurl down the dirt of snow covered road with a Frenchman, Swiss, or Finn behind the wheel.
Which is better?
Modern F1 and vintage Rally are both truely amazing, despite what the specs on paper seem to say.

 

[EJ3]

And is anybody stopping you?

There's a lot of assumption here, that somebody is going to come and take away your tape decks, or all your turntables, or whatever. I'm certainly not.

If you understand that some of your choices are not "objectively better", why get so angry when someone suggests that it might not be "objectively better" or might not be the logical choice for someone who wants "objectively better"?

And if your circumstances mean you can't use a particular method to listen to music, I quite understand that. My circumstances restrict me in different ways. I effectively get one format, so why shouldn't I choose the "objectively better" one?

In fact, my position is that we should use what makes the most music available to us, given our circumstances and a good level of fidelity. I listened to LPs for twenty years because that was what I had, and I stopped for reasons of space and because my turntable died.
If streaming is not available to you, but tapes, radio broadcasts. records and CDs are, then that is absolutely what you should be doing. and if you WANT those things, so much the better!

If the damned turntable sounds exactly the same as the cheaper, easier to use and more flexible option, when why would you choose it?

You asked the question!
I answered the question!
So then you attack!
Brilliant strategy!!
And what exactly was your point?

 

[Galliardist]

You asked the question!
I answered the question!
So then you attack!
Brilliant strategy!!
And what exactly was your point?

My point was that your tone and shouting were undeserved. That’s all.

 

[AdamG]

There is an even-ginormously-bigger 'crowd' who reckon their shite earbuds sound "blow me away" good. I'm not trying to tell them they don't like that either. They obviously do. If that is the argument for vinyl sound, ie sixty-quintillion flies eat shite so it must be good, then let's expose the joke for what it is. It's the very meaning of the word 'satisficing'. 'Settling' is also good. You guys go 'settle' at whatever level you like. Call that level whatever you like, too, that won't change what it is. Low, mid, mid-high, lower, lesser, yeah yeah yeah, all good. Twist away. Twist away for 9188 posts, you are still accepting handcuffs when it comes to the big game in town....the reason for becoming an audiophile...aspirational sound quality. Setting your budget and then aspiring to the best sound quality you can get for that money, and doing it as a format-agnostic, tech-agnostic, truth-seeking, audio, phile.

"Sighted anecdote crowd"....what a joke, there are forums for that, right? What are their names again? How many decades have we had to read that stuff until it starts to seep through our defences and we question our own conclusions? It's corrosive, right? When I see that stuff posted here on ASR I will continue to call it. It's nothing personal towards the perpetrators, it's for the general readership.

Speaking of sighted anecdotes, we do realise that we are totally irrelevant to the vinyl revival on the sales charts, right? Every single one of you telling 'my audio journey' bedtime stories in response to this thread are way, way, off-topic. Embracing and perpetuating the bedside banter in this thread, while trying to forbid discussion of the pros and cons of vinyl and their relative weight in the revival, is nothing short of ironic.

I love my IEM’s and to me with my extensive hearing loss. They sound superior in every way outside of tactile Ultra Low Frequency Bass (My subs produce Reference SPL @12 hZ). My IEM’s are wired and performed on balance as good and better than CD quality. I use a Personal Audiogram to Eq/Peq them to enhance the frequency zones I have hearing loss. They sound phenomenal to me and I will state here and now that they outperform my Main System in terms of my personal audio quality experience. Discovering high quality IEM’s is due to ASR and Amir. I didn’t even know what IEM was until I started reading Amir’s IEM reviews and buying them to test drive. So add me to your “Blown Away crowd list”.

The rest of your post reads like a rant for the general sake of ranting. Very aggressive comments and words. I ask you to please dial back the general snark and group attacks in your generalizations about whatever it is you decided to rant about. This post is not respectful nor dignified. We have asked for civil discourse and respectful debate. If you are unable to meet this low hurdle you will be removed from this thread. Consider this a Warning Sir.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

 

[Holmz]

I love my IEM’s and to me with my extensive hearing loss. They sound superior in every way outside of tactile Ultra Low Frequency Bass (My subs produce Reference SPL @12 hZ). My IEM’s are wired and performed on balance as good and better than CD quality. I use a Personal Audiogram to Eq/Peq them to enhance the frequency zones I have hearing loss. They sound phenomenal to me and I will state here and now that they outperform my Main System in terms of my personal audio quality experience. Discovering high quality IEM’s is due to ASR and Amir. I didn’t even know what IEM was until I started reading Amir’s IEM reviews and buying them to test drive. So add me to your “Blown Away crowd list”.

The rest of your post reads like a rant for the general sake of ranting. Very aggressive comments and words. I ask you to please dial back the general snark and group attacks in your generalizations about whatever it is you decided to rant about. This post is not respectful nor dignified. We have asked for civil discourse and respectful debate. If you are unable to meet this low hurdle you will be removed from this thread. Consider this a Warning Sir.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

Well tribalism exists everywhere now.
And admitting to liking vinyl is akin to a vinyl fetish or being viewed like a Flat Earther or an “alternate truths” type.

I mostly stick to Etymotics for IEMs and at least they have the sleeves that cut out 20-25 dB of external noise.
I even use them without plugging into anything when mowing the lawn.
Which IEMs are you using @AdamG ??

 

[AdamG]

Well tribalism exists everywhere now.
And admitting to liking vinyl is akin to a vinyl fetish or being viewed like a Flat Earther or an “alternate truths” type.

I mostly stick to Etymotics for IEMs and at least they have the sleeves that cut out 20-25 dB of external noise.
I even use them without plugging into anything when mowing the lawn.
Which IEMs are you using @AdamG ??

I have chosen the FIIO FH Line. Regularly rotate between the FH3 Eclipse, FH5s Pro, FH7s, and the FH9 (linked below). IMHO the FH3 Eclipse is the best Bass IEM of the bunch. The FH7s is second place and has the most balanced FR. I personally like the overall quality. They exclusively use the MMCX cable connection and this allows the connection to swivel. The swivel permits a more comfortable fit for me. They also include a nice amount of tips and user adjustment tuning features. The cable quality is also very high. They can get pricey as you move up the line. While the FH9 was the flagship model I found that the FH7 was as good if not better in the lower frequencies than the FH9. These are my new daily drivers and I use them every night in bed. Adding in a Qudelix 5K and an IPhone completes the chain and provides ample amplification and customized PEQ capabilities. It’s just phenomenal that we have this technology now and anyone with hearing damage should look into using EQ to help improve how you hear music. I utilize the “Mimi” hearing assessment App to generate custom Audiogram data that can be directly loaded into your IPhone. This has been a breakthrough in personalized sound design to compensate for hearing loss/damage. I spent too many days in loud Ship Engine Rooms and Naval Surface Gun Exercises.

Disclaimer: This is all my personal Subjective experience and opinion. The above FH Line accept large EQ adjustments without producing any noticeable distortions or breakup. 8 to 12 dB boosts and I never noticed any distortion. My general listening level is around 72 dB +/- 3 dB.

FH3

FiiO--Born for Music

www.fiio.com

2 Balanced Armatures 2 Dynamic Drivers In-Ear Monitors FH5S/FH5S PRO

Thanks to the excellent designs and great sound, FiiO balanced armature and dynamic driver hybrid earphones have always been highly praised and become best sellers due to positive word-of-mouth. The all-new rookie FH5s/FH5s Pro is a true upgrade from the veteran FH5, with significant...

www.fiio.com

4 Balanced Armature 1 Dynamic Driver IEMs FH7S

The FH7S is equipped with the same dynamic driver as in the FH9, the 2nd-gen FiiO-developed large 13.6mm DLC driver. The large 13.6mm diaphragm allows the driver to easily produce more energy for better extended bass – resulting in robust yet natural-sounding low frequencies.

www.fiio.com

1 Dynamic 6 Balanced Armature Drivers IEMs FH9 -FiiO official website

FiiO's new flagship hybrid IEMs, the FH9, is the result of two years’ worth of intense research on how to fully take advantage of the strengths of hybrid IEMs and push the boundaries of what they can sound like. This 1 dynamic 6 BA driver design (7 in total) features a 2nd generation 13.6mm DLC...

www.fiio.com

‎Mimi Hearing Test

‎The Mimi Hearing Test is an easy and reliable assessment of your hearing, delivering understandable results in just 5 minutes. - Modern assessment: Test quickly and thoroughly a wide range of frequencies. - Instant results: Receive valuable insights from your auditory data to understand...

apps.apple.com

 

[IPunchCholla]

... it doesn't say that at all round here. I believe you have to be interested in fun and learning, and the current rule from the front page "Heavy use of technical jargon is required for participation."

Newman didn't say you had to be an audiophile in that post. He gave a definition of audiophile (that I don't recognise, since I think of audiophiles as the other bunch that wax lyrical about differences in equipment that give out what should be audibly identical soundwaves, claim that measurements are irrelevant and that blind tests can't work, etc.)
I think he's trying to hold up what we know about the science as something for people wanting to be "audiophiles" to aspire to.

In fact most people around here are trying to get the best sound they can for minimal expenditure. Try to argue that you need more than the basic level of anything for any reason and you'll get pushback very quickly. Well, maybe you can have slightly more expensive speakers.

Newman is actually an outlier with his proposition. And in a sense he's the guilty conscience of this forum. There's a reason why his version of a manfesto post annoys quite so many people.

I think that is a very generous reading of the below. To me it seems generous to the point that you are ignoring the connotation of the words and ignoring that it is a beg the question construction. I think it is plain to see from Newman’s responses in this thread that he is not just standing for the truth but is doing so in a highly aggressive manner and is an expert at using connotation to attack.

“You guys go 'settle' at whatever level you like. Call that level whatever you like, too, that won't change what it is. Low, mid, mid-high, lower, lesser, yeah yeah yeah, all good. Twist away. Twist away for 9188 posts, you are still accepting handcuffs when it comes to the big game in town....the reason for becoming an audiophile...aspirational sound quality”

While he doesn’t denote that you have to be an audiophile to be here, here certainly uses that connotation through the blind assumption that “You guys” are not following the (notice the singular) reason for becoming and audiophile… aspirational sound quality. He does this in the connotation of settling, which in US English is used derisively. Everyone knows that someone who says “The new C8s are good and all, if you’re willing to settle.” Is throwing shade, issuing an insult without denoting an insult in an attempt to insult someone and get away with it on the technicality that they only connotated an insult the didn’t denote it. This isn’t a one off for him. This post like many others follows a pattern of careful language construction to not denote insults but to connotate them.

EDIT_____________

While I have a memory of the below occurring, @Newman has searched and I have searched in this thread and the exchange did not occur. I apologize to Newman. I am leaving the below instead of deleting it as I believe a record is important, but it should be read in the above context. The exchange did not happen.

One of the reasons upthread that I gave for listening to vinyl, is that I have generalized anxiety and depression and the ritual for preparing to play a record helps me focus on the music in ways that can be hard on a computer when I am anxious. His response was he had no problem concentrating. Again the denotation is that he has no problem concentrating, but mental health in this country is still highly stigmatized and a common reaction those of us with it get is along the lines of I get nervous too, but i just use self discipline to overcome it. Completely not understanding the difference between nervousness and anxiety (or sadness vs depression) and think I am just like them, so what’s the issue. This very often extends to denotations of cowardice and laziness. Newman’s response, in the context of my disclosure connotates an insult and a very clear one that is oft repeated in my culture. It does it in the guise of a simply statement so that Newman can disavow responsibility and further if challenged can throw it back in the challenger’s face by saying I am misunderstanding him or it is all in my head (the usual one since I have already admitted mental health issues).

The denotation/conotation ploys is learned by fifth grade as a strategy, and while easily called out there as it is usually clumsy, it can be refined until it becomes exhausting to try and fight. After all 8/8 is just a date. Many statements are 14 words long, settling isn’t technically an insult, and everyone here (“you guys”) should be an audiophile of this definition (begs the question), and since that is true you should acknowledge that your experience is lesser.

So no, he didn’t technically say everyone had to be an audiophile on this site. He begged the question and then equated it with the non-insult insult (very akin to the non-apologies corps and politicians tend to issue) of settling and lesser. I would posit that his pattern of doing this is what makes many people angry/irritated and push back. It has nothing to do with them (and me) being perfectly happy to own the literal denotations (I have done so several times in this thread) while absolutely not excepting the connotations.

 

[Mikig]

That’s why on this very page I somewhat forewarned Mikig that If you don’t downplay your opinion of vinyl sound quality enough, some folks can get antsy.

Hi Matt,
don't worry, more or less in every thread there are users who think differently. Some are inclined to explain their theses and have a more informative behavior. Others lose patience and try to spread their beliefs more with the force of language.
An old saying goes: when a personal opinion wants to become the truth and only the truth, it starts to make you have doubts!!!

I can't get angry about politics or at work or on the street, imagine if I have to for Hi-Fi, which I consider a beautiful part of my free time.... I am positive by nature, so what I do, even more so if it is a hobby or a passion, I live it with positivity.
I like reading and learning, I don't like arguing, in fact I always let go.
Maybe this is why I abandoned social media years ago....
I can understand the reasons of physics and electronics, acoustics and psycho-acoustics that are behind the audio world; they are not up for discussion, they are the basis of Hi-fi listening, but then you can't ignore the human part that each of us fortunately has. So personal taste, experience, hearing, ear morphology etc etc, all things that lead us to have a preference or take choice.
And yes, sometimes personal preferences are not necessarily the absolute objective best, but they become the best for ourselves, and this is fundamental.
Always net of the rules that govern a sector.

It seems to me that here no one wants to question the technical and sonic superiority or inferiority of media, devices or basic ideas.
Some are simply saying that they still love vinyl, or as in my case that they would like to take it back to have a physical audio library... no comparison, no discussion, just the pleasure of a choice.
no pursuit of perfection, except the pursuit of good sound even with the turntable. Where is the problem?

 

[EJ3]

My point was that your tone and shouting were undeserved. That’s all.

There was no tone or shouting. Just an average statement of answering your question.
My, you are sensitive.
Had I known that, I would not have bothered, as I thought that I was just adding to the discussion & gently answering your query.
I guess that we have vastly differing ideas of what is normal, respectable, discussion.

 

[atmasphere]

Well, yes it is.

I don't have one single LP where I can't hear surface noise between the tracks. Nor do I have one that is completely devoid end to end of a little crackle, or a light pop someweher (Even when using my amazing waxwing preamp - that, by the way, on it's own cost twice as much as a decent new CD transport, and 20x as much as the second hand CD player I actually use). I also have to treat them with kid gloves, and periodically clean them, to stop those artefacts getting worse.

I've pointed out a number of times that its common for phono sections to have a design flaw which can cause them to generate ticks and pops that aren't on the LP.

I'm very used to hearing entire LP sides that have no surface noise, ticks or pops.

I also have one or two older LP's that demonstrate significant distortion - I am assuming due to being played on substandard gear with a rusty nail as a stylus at some point in their life. But all vinyl wears over time no matter the gear.

Though I've never noticed inner groove distortion, or the lower "THD+N" while music is actually playing. I think I do notice a rollloff of higher frequencies, but have never ab'd it to check.

CD doesn't suffer from any of those things. And as pointed out by @MattHooper the market chose CD over vinyl very quickly, and it wasn't because of sighted bias.

But none of those things detract from the experience sufficiently to stop me getting immense pleasure from playing vinyl.

LPs have bandwidth past 20KHz even in the lead out groove area. My Westerex 3D cutterhead easily cut a 30KHz tone which was easily played back on our studio machine- an aging Technics SL1200 equipped with a Grado Gold cartridge, which we used to verify that a track we had cut was playable. So bandwidth of the LP isn't why you hear a rolloff. It could be an EQ error. You can check this by using an inverse RIAA network and running a sweep to see how well the phono section actually pans out.

OTOH, digital playback can have aliasing, which is a form of distortion interpreted by the ear as brightness. Much of that has been vastly reduced in the last 20 years and clock accuracy is vastly improved (by a couple orders of magnitude) in the last 25 years or so, so this is less of a problem than it was 20 years ago.

 

[Newman]

I love my IEM’s and to me with my extensive hearing loss. They sound superior in every way outside of tactile Ultra Low Frequency Bass (My subs produce Reference SPL @12 hZ). My IEM’s are wired and performed on balance as good and better than CD quality. I use a Personal Audiogram to Eq/Peq them to enhance the frequency zones I have hearing loss. They sound phenomenal to me and I will state here and now that they outperform my Main System in terms of my personal audio quality experience. Discovering high quality IEM’s is due to ASR and Amir. I didn’t even know what IEM was until I started reading Amir’s IEM reviews and buying them to test drive. So add me to your “Blown Away crowd list”.

Hi Adam, I wasn't talking about great or even good IEMs. I don't think I could be more clear that I was talking about terrible ones.

The rest of your post reads like a rant for the general sake of ranting. Very aggressive comments and words. I ask you to please dial back the general snark and group attacks in your generalizations about whatever it is you decided to rant about. This post is not respectful nor dignified. We have asked for civil discourse and respectful debate. If you are unable to meet this low hurdle you will be removed from this thread. Consider this a Warning Sir.

Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.

My points are basically these:

Popularity doesn’t mean anything in a science forum. It certainly doesn’t mean anything about how good vinyl sounds. The more people who repeat “it sounds great IMHO”, the further we walk away from understanding the issues.

If we want to analyse popularity in a science forum, instead of just giving opinions, reach to social sciences including marketing science. Way back, I have made one or two of the more genuine attempts to do so of all the posts in this thread. Even though I don’t know marketing science, at least I tried. I got zero traction.

That’s why references to “the sighted anecdote crowd” and calls to “join us” in that crowd, come across, to me, as both a little bit smug, and as an appeal to populism. Importantly, it is also an appeal to the very approach taken in all the audiophile magazines and sympathetically-minded forums, that led to the snake-oil tech and mythmaking that almost destroyed, or at the very least discredited and undermined, progress in sound reproduction, whether it be in cables, amplifiers, DACs, or, yes, speakers and rooms. Sighted listening, and sharing anecdotes of such, is at the root of all that.

And that is exactly what was happening in the post directly above mine, and to which I was responding. In a sense, the stakes were pretty high, and they were anti-science, a call to ASR readers to choose all their hifi gear mainly by sighted listening, and listening to writers telling their personal stories in science forums.

I am pretty passionate about the anti-science rabbit hole that opens up when members here try to drag discussions into that space. Some members are very determined to do so. Their words might be sweet, but I see the regressive issues that lurk beneath. Sometimes my passion comes through a bit strongly….but saying “I’m passionate” seems a bit sterile compared to showing it. Of course as soon as one lets it show, one gets reported….but not by people who share my passion for audio science and progress.

So I guess I am apologising for being aggressively defensive in frustration ….but not for being passionate about defending audio science when it comes under siege, or letting it show from time to time.

Cheers

 

[Newman]

Quick question. Did I miss a pledge somewhere that I had to be an audiophile to be on this site? Cause I’m not, by most definitions that seem to be given out and certainly not by Newman’s. I am interested in the science of audio (all of it, electrical, electronic, psychoacoustic, physiological, cultural, engineering…) but most of the time I am not interested in listening to the best I can afford or in transparency or fidelity.

Of course you are welcome!

But I would venture a guess that your position makes you a rarity (and my saying so will immediately attract 10+ members to join you....but not 10 million ).

You are like the person who is keenly interested in politics, but won't vote. Or the law student who won't observe the law. The priest who won't pray.

Curiosities!

 

[Newman]

Hey there, before I even reply, I just want to thank you for showing some support based on your more sympathetic reading of my 'passion post' than some. Looking back, I can see it is a hard read.

I'm not surprised at the tone of this post, but I think you're hitting a few wrong targets here.

Firstly, decent earbuds and a good phone as a source, will still hammer a lot of expensive systems - dodgy old turntables, the worse SET amps, poorly designed speakers - you know the ones - and even real high end stuff if it's poorly set up. I've been in a dem room where a massive expensive system was beaten for musical content by a cheap Android phone because of crap setup. Earbuds can be properly balanced, full range, can go anywhere (important to some people) and have that access to streaming services for a wide range of music that is often actually mastered for them. If you come across people using shite earbuds, direct them here where good ones are reviewed and recommended. And maybe at a very low budget, that is the best sound. Earbuds can even be what you preach!

Totally agree. For some reason, numerous readers thought I was saying that all earbuds are 'shite'... which I would never say. I was actually only referring to the vast populace of people who listen to music, who have zero interest in how good their audio gear is, probably don't even know that there is such a thing, and love listening to music exclusively on the earbuds that came in the packet with their phone, or that they picked up in an op shop for 20c. And they are blown-away-happy with the music. Meaning, my point, that being blown-away happy with (some) vinyl says next to nothing about vinyl.

Secondly, sighted anecdotes. @MattHooper is actually right about people moving to CD because of sighted comparisons - in part. They also had measurements, of course. They had recommendations from people who could be trusted, the engineers who were comparing, sometimes blind, CD standard digital to analogue master tape, and so on.

Yep. And just to prove a point, I will give a sighted anecdote from today. I spent the afternoon today at an audiophile friend's house playing his and my recorded music. Flicking through his LPs, I picked out one that I also had on LP at home (for the last 51 years) and hadn't listened to for a while, and said "let's play this". He had only recently acquired the LP second hand from his brother who was divesting all of his LPs. Turned out he also had three CDs of the same album (which I will not reveal), all differently mastered, and had never heard the album at all! (I know, right? But he is an obsessive completist and admits so. He is even a big fan of the band, but had assumed this album was their 'bad egg' because no-one ever mentioned it. I suggested he might be in for a treat.) So we listened to side one (and he was so shocked by how much he enjoyed the music, heh). Sadly, the vinyl itself was a bit sub-par, including loud groove damage on the first few minutes of the right channel, but the sections that were relatively good vinyl sounded nicely balanced and we both enjoyed the experience.

Excitedly, he then reached for his three CDs (and it was my turn to say "geez, Tim!"....gotta love a completist), pulled out the 2016 remaster and put on the last track we had just listened to. Urgggh...why is the treble almost splitting my ears? Where had the bass guitar gone? He said, "hmmm, something is seriously missing in the midrange", which I thought was very generous of him. We both agreed that the LP won hands down.

And what point am I proving with this anecdote? Probably nothing. Oh wait, that is the point: anecdotes prove nothing. Especially in this thread. Especially since we both know and have both stated numerous times, in this thread alone and in others, that mastering is the first thing you have to get right, no matter the format or technology.

But didn't a lot of people - including many of the usual suspects still writing for the same magazines forty years later - also do sighted comparisons and somehow manage to prefer LP in the language they used? Hmm... they were deaf already back then, what the hell is their hearing like now? Though we could be generous and suggest some of them are just following the trends and the money to keep their careers. (I'm actually convinced Fremer really spends his time listening to that six figure digital source that he shows us in those listening room videos, counting his money and laughing his head off at the idiots who believe that crap he writes!) That's not to deny that vinyl can sound very good, but in direct comparison... (And for those wondering, one of the first things that happened after CD's release was a massive change towards proper tonal accuracy in LP playback, especially through further development of the tonearm and better RIAA stages. The differences were greater at the beginning of the CD era).

On settling, there are two reasons for "settling" and I've done both. Through the 1980s and up to the mid 1990s, I was settled on vinyl, despite knowing that CD had better sound. The other aspect of "audiophilia" is actually having something to listen to. I had a reasonable size record collection, access to a far larger one through the local record library, and pretty much no money. I could have scraped together enough for a CD player, and eventually got a cheap model for free from an upgrader, but listening to the same three or four CDs for several years would have been maddening. Now we have streaming, of course, but since this is a nostalgia thread in part i thought I'd remind people again - just like turntable setup was irritating when it was your only source and not "fun", we were limited in the music we had available back then as well. This is the golden age. It may not be long before streaming services dump a lot of their current catalogues and artists and labels stop bothering to upload albums that don't pay them anything. Make the most of it while you can.

These days I'm "settled" because of my living circumstances. I'm in a small flat, with a partner who has filled it with books and is hopelessly confused when watching movies in cinemas with surround sound, part of her hearing problem. So, I'm settled with moderately good stereo equipment in an imperfect setup. But don't forget to pull me down for not being "aspirational" if you like. I'll still recommend to anyone with a decent sized dedicated room that they should at least consider a surround setup, because I both understand the science and have had the experience. Sighted, of course. And some of those surround mixes are actually pretty terrible, so maybe I'm missing less than I might think.

Yep. All good. I would never take issue with you for not being aspirational. I am more likely to take issue with someone who says he or she is incredibly aspirational and insists that vinyl is the bees knees and blows them away. In that case, I would find it hard not to argue there are more levels out there, not just based on measurements, but also on what perceptual investigations have revealed about listener preferences.

cheers

 

[egellings]

Absolutely, and no piece of music longer than 25 minutes long should even be tolerated.

In return for our reverence, I do expect groups to play the end of side distortion in live performances, though.

Also, that rate of getting up to change the record is about the same as my beer refill rate, so I get two birds with one stone. Multitasking!