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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

Sal1950

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Everywhere they go, it's Mike Fremer 'hypmotizing' them. They have no free will or ability to listen for themselves, they are just being given Orwellian style orders from the great and powerful Fremer. Money, wasted. Socrates warned us about kids these days. Pop culture, hipsters, (digital) media. It's a wonder they can still afford Starbuck's and avocado toast.
On no, that's not happening, I apologize for being so wrong.
Stereophile, TAS and the rest aren't selling tens of millions of dollars a year in worthless cables and all the rest of the snake-oil world to uneducated buyers either.
Why can't you just be honest.

So, we have to save people from something they enjoy because, some think, they are enjoying it for the wrong reasons?
How many times have we heard the exact same words when trying to explain the realities of cable science and
all the rest on believer sites. :(
"please just leave us alone and quit making us feel dumb for spending $100,000 on cables" DUH

Sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm

Thank you for your (typical) contribution.
LOL
 

ta240

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How many times have we heard the exact same words when trying to explain the realities of cable science and
all the rest on believer sites. :(
"please just leave us alone and quit making us feel dumb for spending $100,000 on cables" DUH
You are using an example of something that doesn't have a different sound and applying it to something that does have a different sound and experience for the user. And it is entirely possible that some people enjoy that more.
 

Sal1950

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It is true, you just can't enjoy the beauty of the albums artwork with these newfangled discs like you
can with an old rubbed out LP sleeve.
IMG_0019.JPG
 

Sal1950

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You are using an example of something that doesn't have a different sound and applying it to something that does have a different sound and experience for the user.
We're discussing the true value of any particular object in a modern hifi.
Again that was the OP's question, to justify it's value
 

Robin L

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We're discussing the true value of any particular object in a modern hifi.
Again that was the OP's question, to justify it's value
No, the question was "why is there a revival of interest in LPs", an altogether different question. It's not a "value" question, it's not a "SOTA" question, it's about people returning to an older format that was previously written off. I think the paper “Keeping what real? Vinyl records and the future of independent culture” is the best answer so far, noting such things as the influence of DJ culture, record store days and the physicality of the product. The audiophile community is too small to explain this consistent increase in sales and as a number of respondents here have noted, sound quality isn't the issue for them. You seem to have an axe to grind and frankly, it doesn't really make any sense.
 

MattHooper

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It is true, you just can't enjoy the beauty of the albums artwork with these newfangled discs like you
can with an old rubbed out LP sleeve.
View attachment 325358

I agree with your point here, Sal.

I admit one can get the sense from vinyl enthusiasts that LPs are just some sort of aesthetic trump card: "nothing beats the aesthetics of a real album cover."

But it's just as easy to see the presentation of album artwork in digital form as beautiful, even more compelling. I was blown away by the look of my server streaming apps on my iPad, the artwork was more vivid than on any real album. And as you show above, it's not constrained to a little phone image or ipad, you can see album art, and notes, and graphics on wall-sized screens. I listen to digital streamed music all the time in my home theater set up, viewing the albums, lyrics etc on a big projection screen, and it's glorious!

I like both, don't feel I have to decide which is better. But if pushed I personally find the physical LPs more compelling overall, but I wouldn't quibble with anyone who thought the aesthetics you can get with digital sources are super cool.
 

Sal1950

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No, the question was "why is there a revival of interest in LPs", an altogether different question. It's not a "value" question, it's not a "SOTA" question, it's about people returning to an older format that was previously written off. I think the paper “Keeping what real? Vinyl records and the future of independent culture” is the best answer so far, noting such things as the influence of DJ culture, record store days and the physicality of the product. The audiophile community is too small to explain this consistent increase in sales and as a number of respondents here have noted, sound quality isn't the issue for them. You seem to have an axe to grind and frankly, it doesn't really make any sense.
I have no axe to grind.
Your either interested in SOTA music reproduction, or just a toy to play with.
 

Robin L

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I have no axe to grind.
Your either interested in SOTA music reproduction, or just a toy to play with.
I'm interested in the music and very frequently the music reproduction is not SOTA. That is because the recordings frequently are not SOTA.
 

thecheapseats

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...When you state your position clearly, as you did, then I don't think there are any misunderstandings...
nonsense... you posts are replete with your misunderstanding of this very issue, as you equivocate increased vinyl sales with some ideation that LPs are something other than an alternative merchandising channel product which generates revenue...

for those who prefer to own a larger format 'thing' they can hold in their hand - great... it has big pictures with liner notes - and maybe they will hang-it up on their wall... a valid choice for those spending their money...

but for many of us who have made records for a living for +/- half a century or more - we just do the math of the noise floor differences of an LP and a digital mix in our heads - and wish them luck in these artist-challenged economic times...
 

Sal1950

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but for many of us who have made records for a living for +/- half a century or more - we just do the math of the noise floor differences of an LP and a digital mix in our heads - and wish them luck in these artist-challenged economic times...
+ 10,000
 

Galliardist

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I'm interested in the music and very frequently the music reproduction is not SOTA. That is because the recordings frequently are not SOTA.
Digital recording is in fact a far greater advance than digital playback, and probably more audible. I have a few SACDs mastered from old tapes where the tape hiss is perfectly preserved for our listening pleasure.
 

Robin L

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Digital recording is in fact a far greater advance than digital playback, and probably more audible. I have a few SACDs mastered from old tapes where the tape hiss is perfectly preserved for our listening pleasure.
Very early in my days as a recording engineer, I made a demo tape using a Tascam 32 half-track reel to reel recorder running at 15 IPS. I could easily hear the tape hiss along with some roll off in the upper registers. Soon thereafter I was using a cheap Technics DAT recorder, could not tell the difference between the microphone feed and the resulting recording. It was around that time that my opinion of digital recording and playback started to change. Before I assumed that analog record/play was superior. After I began to realize that the issue wasn't with digital gear but with the way it was being used. And the sound of commercial recordings, to these ears, seemed to improve from that moment on. Honestly, I now go back to early digital recordings and no longer hear the problems I heard when they first appeared. I think most of the SACDs I hung on to have plenty of tape hiss, though they also have some other virtues as well. Hard to beat those Living Stereo remasters from RCA/BMG.
 

Sal1950

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MattHooper

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nonsense...

WTF?

I was responding to your own description of YOUR experience and goals when playing vinyl, and saying I understand it makes sense. And now that's "nonsense?"


you posts are replete with your misunderstanding of this very issue, as you equivocate increased vinyl sales with some ideation that LPs are something other than an alternative merchandising channel product which generates revenue...

What you call 'equivocating' is simply explaining what I get out of vinyl, and trying to understand and describe what others have said too.

You've just tried to reduce the enthusiasm for vinyl down to some simple marketing/merchandising point. Did you stop to think why this "alternative merchandising product" generates revenue...in fact ever increasing revenue since 2007? It's because there's a market: people are getting value out of playing records. Answering why is a central theme of this thread, and it goes entirely unanswered by simplistic reductions like you've given above.


for those who prefer to own a larger format 'thing' they can hold in their hand - great... it has big pictures with liner notes - and maybe they will hang-it up on their wall... a valid choice for those spending their money...

Ok. So...you've recognized that vinyl is a valid choice for other people. That's a start. But as has been detailed in this thread, not to mention countless articles and interviews on the subject, the reasons people are buying vinyl are wide raging. If you think you've exhausted the reasons people have for getting in to records, you haven't been paying attention. I could go over them again, but your responses suggest it will fall on deaf ears. You don't seem interested in any facts that dare go beyond a cynical "it's just merchandising" take.


but for many of us who have made records for a living for +/- half a century or more - we just do the math of the noise floor differences of an LP and a digital mix in our heads - and wish them luck in these artist-challenged economic times...

Sure, that's perfectly fine. FOR YOU.

This is where you seem to be conflating things, in exactly the way I cited in the first pages of this thread: You seem to think that because YOU have a certain dim view of vinyl from your own experience and goals, and that you have a very narrow interest in what you can get out of records, that talk of other motivations - even if someone enjoys the sound quality - is just bogus and handwaving, and there isn't much more to vinyl than mere merchandising. That's just facile.

Like you I grew up with records, experienced the transition to CD/digital. I've recorded as a band in the analog and digital era. I've done work in sound since the early 80s, professionally since early 90's, I made the transition from working with analog tape to digital, I work on a DAW in high quality digital sound, and in my own music system use professional level DACs. I'm hardly unfamiliar with the differences between digital and analog. So like you I've been around the block.

But...gasp!...I still get more out of records than you do. You don't think about sound quality at all when listening to a record? I think about it all the time, and I think they can sound fantastic (as do all the guests who have heard records on my system). People really can have good reasons to like vinyl in ways you don't.

Sorry if those facts don't mesh with your cynical narrative.
 

VMAT4

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...

Does the vinyl renaissance make sense to you because it sure doesn't to me
Yes, the vinyl renaissance makes sense to me because the power of suggestion is strong. Michael Fremer says that records sound better and that suggestion taints many listeners' beliefs. Add in some pseudoscience that "information" is missing from digital formats but not from analogue formats and again people buy that also. It adds up to the vinyl renaisance being based on pseudoscience and the power of suggestion.
 

Anton D

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Wow, Fremer. Just how powerful is this menace to all that’s right?

16 years of this ‘vinyl renaissance.’ At least now we know who the evil mastermind is. :D
 

restorer-john

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Your either interested in SOTA music reproduction, or just a toy to play with.

It doesn't have to be so black and white, Sal.

I enjoy open reel decks. I rebuild them, align and restore them, play and record a few tapes and thoroughly enjoy what they are capable of. Are they SOTA? No, but they are one of the coolest pieces of HiFi ever made. I do the same with DAT recorders and trust me, that's a whole lot more complicated. And they were SOTA- 30 years ago. They also give me great enjoyment, as does an unloved repaired CD player somebody cast aside, or a turntable brought back to life and used.

Putting a music file through a flawless DAC is no challenge, requires zero skill and is frankly boring unless all you want is the music. I want a whole lot more. People playing vinyl want a whole lot more (and they get that and all the flaws). They choose to use vinyl one day, digital the next, streaming in the car etc.
 

MattHooper

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Yes, the vinyl renaissance makes sense to me because the power of suggestion is strong. Michael Fremer says that records sound better and that suggestion taints many listeners' beliefs. Add in some pseudoscience that "information" is missing from digital formats but not from analogue formats and again people buy that also. It adds up to the vinyl renaisance being based on pseudoscience and the power of suggestion.

You'll find similar takes on practically anything.

In many audiophile forums Amir is depicted as a guru who has duped and swayed his "followers" that "measurements are all that matter, nobody really listens to music there." "ASR is just a cult." That type of analysis is for people who don't really want to think about it, don't look in to the real facts, just satisfy their own cynicism about something with a simple explanation. I don't think simplistic, cynical "explanations" are accurate regarding the vinyl renaissance either.

There's certainly some truth that there's misinformation or mistaken beliefs weaving through the vinyl revival. But it's far from the single explanation.
 
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